The Council of War

[wuy3]

ya I'm just worried the other factions might cry foul if they found out we did something like that. I'd say keep the mods out of this.

[DeathByTheSword]

true is kinda sounds like cheating...

[Modo44]

Whatever can be done by game mechanics, and nothing more is my opinion. I say we give the tech to Zak and hope he starts the AV, so we can rush it for him. This is still better than allowing the Angels or Morgan to build it, and it is not in violation of any deals. If Zak in fact builds the project, we can think about acquiring it by extortion.

[Googlie]

Only downside is that Zak will immediately gift it to lal, who might then trade it to the Angels. If Lal starts the SP, then he won't trade, but if he doesn't .....

(and if he does cpomplete it, then we'll just make a point of capturing that particular base)

I don't know what the game mechanics are re: submissives if Zak starts it in the turn we give it to him, whether or not he'll thgen withold it from Lal

The next question is, if we sell/gift it to Zak, is: do we then assist him in instabuilding it by sending our ginfreighter to that base to help rush it?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
Only downside is that Zak will immediately gift it to lal, who might then trade it to the Angels. If Lal starts the SP, then he won't trade, but if he doesn't .....

We have to risk, I think. Otherwise the Angels will build the project anyway, just a few turns later.

Originally posted by Googlie
The next question is, if we sell/gift it to Zak, is: do we then assist him in instabuilding it by sending our ginfreighter to that base to help rush it?

Of course. There would be no point gifting the tech if Zak could not get the project.

By the way, can a faction be submissive to more than one faction at a time? I thought the most recent one counts...

[Googlie]

Here's an idea:

We instabuild the AV in Fort Liberty, but gift the base to Zak that same turn (changing its name to Mir lab - or some other Uni name) then next turn it builds the AV, then immediately (or maybe a turn later, so that we can announce that Zak has completed the AV) we demand the base back from Zak

Only downsides are

• he refuses to give the base back, so we are down a base
• Zak has Neural Grafting by then and decides to change SP from the AV to the NA

This needs testing in the simulator first, but it's crazy enough to maybe just work!!

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Modo44
By the way, can a faction be submissive to more than one faction at a time? I thought the most recent one counts...

Yes - Routinely in 4-player PBEMs the CMN sets up 3-way AI submissive relationships whereby each AI faction is submissive to the other 2.

It works extremely well, as all 3 do co-ordinate reserach, and often will leapfrog just like human players do.

I'd expect to see Lal with Planetary Economics next turn (I never got past his demand to get it without paying or trading this turn, to get something of value for it). Let's hope that he commences the AV, and thus won't trade it on to the Angels "wouldn't want to see the AV fall into your hands, etc"

G.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
Here's an idea:

We instabuild the AV in Fort Liberty, but gift the base to Zak that same turn (changing its name to Mir lab - or some other Uni name) then next turn it builds the AV, then immediately (or maybe a turn later, so that we can announce that Zak has completed the AV) we demand the base back from Zak

Only downsides are

• he refuses to give the base back, so we are down a base
• Zak has Neural Grafting by then and decides to change SP from the AV to the NA

This needs testing in the simulator first, but it's crazy enough to maybe just work!!

Another downside is, others will know what has happened. Or how do you intend to hide the base changing hands from the world?

[Googlie]

Anyone who has the Uni infiltrated will see the AV completed, then a turn or two later won't see that base in Uni hands, so they can put 2 and 2 together.

And, really, do we care about the subterfuge becoming public knowledge? As far as agreements go, Zak built the AV, not us, so we're squeaky clean as regards the Angels and took the high road, and are just recouping the benefits of having another faction submissive to us.

After all, base trading with the AI is disallowed, but extortion is OK, per the rules .

As an aside, invoking the parallel turn rule (Q: is it parallel when the original game play turn is finished and done with?) I restarted 2172 from scratch and called up Lal. At that time (first contact) he'd have traded NG for Planetary Economics, but, of course, in the real gameturn we hadn't developed our strategy so far as to be considering giving it to Zak (and thereby to Lal) let alone Lal himself. And Zak would buy PE, NG and Doc:Init from us (almost exhausting his energy credits reserve)

If Lal hasn't got it by next turn we can call him up again and execute the trade for NG, then cash in that AA sitting in Tegea Harbour (or maybe trade a tech to the Gaians for NG - after all, we have about a dozen that they lack)

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Googlie
(or maybe trade a tech to the Gaians for NG - after all, we have about a dozen that they lack)

Specifically:

• Progenitor Psych
• Field Modulation
• Nonlinear math
• Polymorphic Software
• Adaptive Doctrine
• Adaptive Economics
• Intellectual Integrity
• Optical Computers
• Superconductor
• Cyberethics
• Doctrine: Initiative
• Planetary Economics

(They are currently researching Intellectual Integrity, and the only tech they have that we lack is indeed Neural Grafting)

We have only 3 techs that the Angels lack (the last 3 in the list above) so why don't we offer the Gaians Cyberethics for Neural Grafting - that way they'll have something of value to trade to the Angels, thus making a trade with us that much more attractive?

[Modo44]

Googlie, gifting a base to the AI might be considered trading it...

[vishniac]

I really dislike trying at all cost to snatch the AV.
Bigger fishes to catch seem to me the CF and the HSA (especially this one!), not to talk about the weight of our word.

We should concentrate on the imminent attack on Lal and the seizure of his 2 AA. After all, a lot of our bases won't see size 7 anytime soon.

[Modo44]

Wonder addiction, you call it. A thing that keeps players below Emperor level in Civ3. While our reputation might be less of an issue soon (due to the Planetary Datalinks securing many techs we would have to trade for otherwise, hence lessening the value of any tech deal to us), I am now convinced that open violation of deals is not yet an option.

MY point is as it was: give Zak the tech, and hope he starts the project. If he does, help him build it. This is honest enough, with a good chance of keeping AV from the others. We risk giving one tech out earlier than anticipated, but I think we can live with that.

[Googlie]

Well, I gave Zak the tech in 2172. He prolly will want to complete his builds in his 3 bases before contemplating starting an SP.

(But we're a couple of turns before getting the ginfreighter in place to help him anyways)

Oh - and with the sim, after I got NG and cashed in the AA, we got bio-engineering. Now that gives the ability to build the Longevity Vaccine, which, for a faction running Planned (as we are) gives 2 less drones at every base.

That's a worthwhile SP for us to get if we plan on running Planned for another century or so

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Googlie
Oh - and with the sim, after I got NG and cashed in the AA, we got bio-engineering. Now that gives the ability to build the Longevity Vaccine, which, for a faction running Planned (as we are) gives 2 less drones at every base.

That's a worthwhile SP for us to get if we plan on running Planned for another century or so

Yes, that would make popbooming much easier.

Do we have the resources to still get the Cyborg Factory if we build the two projects now? Will Crawler upgrades do?