The Council of War

[Googlie]

rats

and of course, undefended size 2 or 3 bases that we waltzed into would still be size 2 or 3 respectively

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
LOL - and there I thought I was like Eisenhower planning D-Day. I hadn't realized that Snod had already touted that as a strategic option

I was wondering why you didn't give me any credit
We can call it the Snooglie Plan.

Brilliant maps btw They really brought the plan to life.

Well obviously I like the idea. Using the bizarre crawler-hurry feature that Maniac mentioned will give us the opportunity to insta-build an army while maintaining a high level of production. So that makes a rapid build-up/attack even more attractive. We don't really need any plasma units even, do the Morgans even have laser?

A concern of mine is that our Crypteia (infantry chassi right?) won't be able to keep up with the rovers, since we won't be able to get them elite will we? (they can't use monoliths) So how about a couple of Longstriders mixed in to keep up with the blitzing?

It's a shame we can't build amphibious units, a couple of elite marines would kick ass. Obviously the less impact rovers we have sitting right next to the Morgan coastal bases, the less we are exposed to the hostile Morgan soil.

Wait! We already have a force that can do the razing. The units currently in Arcadia. How much can Morgan do before those lads land? Dare I say: nothing?

Yeah you're probably right, and I also considered this. The problem is that they will stop that assault eventually, and we won't get much or anything from it long term except weakening them. Remember there are other factions to consider, if we go on "scorched earth" raids against Morgan, the Gaians/Angels will gain in influence. So I think we should be patient and prepare for a sizable, yet relatively fast attack against Morgan, which will give us some return on our investment.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Yeah you're probably right, and I also considered this. The problem is that they will stop that assault eventually, and we won't get much or anything from it long term except weakening them. Remember there are other factions to consider, if we go on "scorched earth" raids against Morgan, the Gaians/Angels will gain in influence. So I think we should be patient and prepare for a sizable, yet relatively fast attack against Morgan, which will give us some return on our investment.

Actually, if it was just about weakening Morgan, I'd go for it. The units could go on a rampage, just destroying anything in their path, not even trying to keep bases.

But I see another problem with my idea. Once we start taking on human factions, who are obviously better at defending than the AI, we might face an alliance soon. That's why, as much as I'd like to send those units to do some damage, I'd rather not reveal our power just yet. They can pact all they want, but after Morgan is toasted.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Modo44

Actually, if it was just about weakening Morgan, I'd go for it. The units could go on a rampage, just destroying anything in their path, not even trying to keep bases.

But I see another problem with my idea. Once we start taking on human factions, who are obviously better at defending than the AI, we might face an alliance soon. That's why, as much as I'd like to send those units to do some damage, I'd rather not reveal our power just yet. They can pact all they want, but after Morgan is toasted.

Agreed
Indeed one of the major reasons I don't much care for the raiding idea is that the Morgans will have time to prepare for a future raid I'd rather have one huge raid/invasion for which the Morgans are not entirely prepared.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
I'd rather have one huge raid/invasion for which the Morgans are not entirely prepared.

Which meams. essentially, that we build an assault force large enough to tale all Morgan bases in at least 2 turns

We can leave first-turn-captured bases undefended if need be so long as the momentum continues and we don't let Morgan mount a counter attack on those bases.

So some Skanky Sileni units that can keep up with the Impact Rovers wil be needed to secure forward bases as garrisons to free up the Rovers for momentum continuation

And I agree with the couple of longstriders in each assault force. Although if properly planned, with infiltration we can target those Morgan bases that have rover chassis probes, then control the road access for the infantry probes.

But strength in numbers is good - albeit delaying the invasion somewhat.

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
Which meams. essentially, that we build an assault force large enough to tale all Morgan bases in at least 2 turns

...

But strength in numbers is good - albeit delaying the invasion somewhat.

Yes, I agree.

So what kind of timeframe are we talking about here? Arcadia has the troops to send over according to the 2+2-cruiser transport plan, all it needs are some Crypteias and another cruiser. Sparta needs to build 4 rovers, some Crypteia and two cruisers. Are we talking roughly 10-15 years to get these built?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
do the Morgans even have laser?

They somehow acquired Applied Physics MY 2149 IIRC. The same way they got Social Psych I assume, a popped unity sea pod.(?)
As they've now mind controlled our laser foil the SCC Hunter, laser weapons are now also prototyped for them.

A concern of mine is that our Crypteia (infantry chassi right?) won't be able to keep up with the rovers, since we won't be able to get them elite will we?

Well one idea I had is to acquire Polymorphic Software. That tech gives all probe teams +1 morale, which would make our commando Crypteia all elite. We'll have to count on Yang being willing to sel us PolySoft though one of the coming years.

It's a shame we can't build amphibious units, a couple of elite marines would kick ass.

I don't see why we couldn't build some marines. A missile marine costs 30 minerals, which is exactly the cost of a crawler.

[Googlie]

2154 inventory - offensive units and transports:

Navy

• SCC Invincible - currently south of Gaialand
• SNC Mercury (capacity - 4 units - currently ferrying Hoplites to Arcadia University)
• SNC Hermes (capacity - 2 units - currently dropped off colony pod and crypteia at TwoNuts Strand site
• SNC Pegasus (capacity - 2 units - currently in the southern Styx waters with a longstrider - earmarked for gaian infiltration - and attempting to extract CRV-112 from Yangland

Mechanized Cavalry

• Chiron Knights - in Arcadia (Impact)
• Shinsengumi - in Arcadia (Impact)
• Warwag - in Arcadia (Impact)
• Castor Horsemen - in Arcadia (Impact)
• R-112 - in Yangland (Impact)
• Rolling Thunder II - NW of Olympus Academy (Unity Rover)

Infantry

• Spartan kel - in Arcadia (Impact)

[Maniac]

Gentlemen of the Junta,

Yesterday I've given some further thought to how an invasion of Morgania could be concretely planned.

I added up Sparta's and Morgans production of this year:
Sparta 75 (support-free) minerals & 9 credits
Morgan 79 minerals & 122 credits (and +1 SE Industry)
Roughly speaking I'd say their economy is double as big as ours.

I also added up what the suggested military taskforce would cost:
5 extra cruiser transports = 200 minerals
8 missile rovers = 400 minerals
8 synth skirmishers (Skanky's Sileni) = 160 minerals
8 longstriders = 240 minerals
+ some expansion of our fleet for escort duty: let's say 150 minerals for three missile cruisers
Total: 1150 minerals

Hello!?!

Even if we could throw all our minerals into the military, that's over a decade worth of production. But we wouldn't be able to use all production for military purposes. We'll also need to continue build extra hoplites, rec commons, crypteia, etc... for the day-to-day running of our faction. So who knows we'd already be tending towards twenty years preparation time... Imagine how many defenders - and who knows offensive troops - Morgan could have built in that time? And we can hardly attack with less troops, if the goal is military conquest. Our troops could get bogged down or mindcontrolled soon after invading.

So I don't want to be a party pooper, and I certainly hope someone can prove me wrong, but considering our current economic base, I think we've gotten a bit overexcited. In my opinion conquering Morgania is too ambitious a goal for us at the moment.

Besides, I'm not sure if this has been explicitly decided: What is to be the goal of a Morganite conquest?

Is it to gain access to extra resources, expand our economy? In that case I can suggest multiple better investments to spend our minerals on.

Or is it to weaken our biggest opponent for victory in the longterm, without necessary having to take over Morganite lands? In that case the PTS raid is of course a brilliant initiative. However in that case I also don't necessarily see the need for a full-blown invasion.

We could make our goals more limited. Goals that require less minerals. Instead of assembling a full invasion force, we could assemble a smaller guerilla force. One that scourges the Morganite coasts and destroys all bases and terraformations in range. The goal would not be to take over control of Morgania, but simply to continually keep them weak. Once the guerilla force would be produced, our bases could switch to builder status, and expand our economy until we are big enough to actually conquer Morgania (and the other remaining factions).

Also regarding atrocities, my opinion regarding those is more or less, either you don't use them at all, or either you say "To hell with commerce and my reputation" and use them as much as possible to your advantage. So if we'll get sanctions anyway for obliterating Morgan Industries, I'd go full monty and start using nerve stapling (less costs to control our drones), nerve gas (50% stronger troops) and base obliterations (to weaken Morgan more, and faster) as much as we can.
I don't know though: could Zak renounce his submission if we'd use normal atrocities too much? Or is only planet busting a big no-no?

As for what a more limited guerilla force could be, I was thinking about eg one or two taskforces of a 1-2t-8 Coastal, a 6-1-8 missile cruiser, a cruiser transport filled with either a bunch of 6~-1-1 elite missile marines (if we would want to keep it purely coastal) or a combination of 1-2t-2 synthrovers, X missile rovers and probe teams (if we also want to venture inland). Such a taskforce would still cost lots of minerals, but a lot less than the cost of a full invasion force.

IIRC the idea of not conquering Morgania but instead weakening him was suggested long ago by Modo, before we got the idea to take over Morgania.

Anyway, as said before, I hope someone can prove that a full invasion of Morgania is possible within a decent timeframe. But if not, hopefully this idea has some merit.

[Snoddasmannen]

Very good investigation Maniac

I wasn't aware of the exact cost of building such an army, I was hoping it would take about a decade, but that seems unreasonable with these figures. We probably won't need to build all those new units, we have some old ones to play with, and our infrastructure and mineral output will increase over the years, but the cost is still prohibitive.

Maybe we should stop and think here. Is it possible for us to weaken the Morgans to such an extent that they won't be able to win, without us resorting a full-blown conquest? How would we actually win the game ourselves? If their economy is twice our size, could we mount raids to eliminate half of it, enabling us to compete? And wouldn't the other teams have a good chance to play catch-up?

Could we mount invasions of Lalaland and The Hive to win a diplomatic victory, while at the same time keeping the Morgans weak enough to not blow us away economically?

I have always advocated the PTS raid, it is a quick and dirty way to wound Morgan. But will taking out the PTS be damaging enough? Perhaps it is better to save our forces, set up a limited version of the Grand Army, the Not So Grand Army, with perhaps 2/3 of the troops. It could be deloyed in a decade or so, and with any luck the Morgans won't have realized the danger they are in and will not have built up a large defense. I'm not convinced this is the way to go, but it has always been an option to the PTS raid.

[Modo44]

That's a bummer. If we can't capture territory from Morgan, we should try to cripple them as much as possible. This will probably mean recalling the currently planned raid in favor of one big hit. Yes, I mean razing as much as possible, and doing so in one big raid, so they can't prepare. Yes, I mean accepting the consequences - sanctions for the rest of the game. Basing on Snoddasmannen's idea, here's what I would do:

Before doing a raid, we should resume the Treaty for a short time. And demand the outstanding payments in cash, basing it on the obvious mistreatment we received from them ("per-turns payments being suspended on numerous occasions without a clear reason"). This would show us as willing to cooperate, while perhaps getting out some quick cash for upgrades/rushes. They might, or might not go for cash paymenst, but I think it's worth a try. At the same time, we can build a force strong enough to destroy the Morgan core once and for all.

We can delay the raid, and preapare 8-10 Cavalry units (Rovers) with 2-3 mobile defenders and transports. No Crypteia, no additional defenders for the transports. Then just let them go, starting with key Morgan bases, and working their way through others. Obliterating everyting. Keeping in teams to prevent mind control. Destroying expensive improvements when possible. If we shock them by razing key bases, they'll have a hard time reacting. We can decide if we want to suicide the force or not once we have seen what bad things Morgan can do to it. Obviously, the weaker Morgan reacts, the more we would be able to destroy.

We can consider sending a defensive force for base captures if/once Morgan is crippled enough to be easy prey. Trying to destroy coastal bases will not do long-term, because Morgan could turtle up. They would simply leave the coast - apparently they are good at ICS (placing cities extremely close), so we wouldn't hurt them nearly as much as by destroying their core.

[Googlie]

A good analysis, Maniac

But I think you're overestimating Morgan's strength after the PTS raid. He'll lose 1/3rd (at least) of those minerals 'cos he'll need to convert a worker to a doctor) and he won't be able to focus on defenses 'cos he''ll need to build drone control facilties - or if he does, it'll be at a much slowwer rate with a worker >>> Doctor in every base (a classic "Guns versus butter" dilemma)

But I'm happy with just the PTS raid - it deals such a crippling blow to Morgan's strategy. However I'd leave the rovers stacked after it and next turn try to take out the HGP as well (our infiltration will show if that's feasible or not) - if it can be done - even with suicide rovers, then I'd go for it. It'll tie Morgan up for twenty turns building drone control facilities, and he won't have those minerals to play with 'cos he hasn't got crawlers and workers will have to be changed to doctors to cope with the drones.

Then I like the idea of forcing him off the water - ruthlessly take out any coastal base they try to build, and bombard from offshore any facility that's in range (and later, with aircraft, bomb the crap out of crawlers/mines/boreholes, etc etc.) In short, Invasion on our terms, but failing invasion, keep them in teh stone age.

[Zeiter]

You think it'll cost that much, Maniac? But we can easily accomplish the same thing with impact troops instead of missle troops, don't you think? In fact, we probably won't need that many additional attacking troops in general, unless Morgan really builds up. Our main problem will be holding and securing the bases we've already captured, not conquering them. Also, we won't need to protect bases in the rear. Thus, I'd say we'd need 8 longstriders, 4 more impact rovers, 8 synthmetal skirmishers (not so much for base garrison duty as for protecting the advancing packs of impact rovers from counterattacks), 4 more cruisers, and maybe 2 cheap foils for escort. Thus:

4 extra cruiser transports = 160 minerals
4 impact rovers = 120 minerals
8 synth skirmishers (Skanky's Sileni) = 160 minerals
8 longstriders = 240 minerals
2 laser foils = 40 minerals
Total: 720 minerals

This would take roughly 10 turns to assemble (with a mineral output of 75 min/turn), and then a couple of turns to launch the invasion, so we'd be talking somewhere around 2168.

Also, we need not hold every single base. If a base is threatened with a counter-probe attack or military counterattack, we can obliterate that one and quickly move on, only holding the especially juicy and/or vital bases.

Also, as a sort of "Plan B," we could keep the raiding force in relatively close position, and if we see Morgan instituting any sort of massive armament building during our buildup, we can deliver a preliminary kamikaze/PTS and HGP sabotage strike.

[Snoddasmannen]

Zeiter, are you suggesting to forego the PTS raid in favour of a more substantial build-up? I hadn't thought of doing your Plan B, it sounds rather interesting. I'm a bit scared that the Morgans will suddenly catch a wiff of our plans and send defenders scurrying to the west coast. Our raid forces would find themselves outgunned and the chance to do a preemptive strike would be lost.

The advantage of an immediate PTS (maybe even HGP) raid is that it would be guaranteed to be a devastating blow.

My thinking is that we send our raid troops to Morgania, and see if we can still succeed in the raid, and if so do it. If not, send the boys home to Arcadia and wait for the build-up and invasion proper.

[Zeiter]

I guess what we need to consider is how easily we would be able to mop up the Morganites with our second invasion proper after the raid, and how much of a boon that would be for us.

With the PTS (and HGP, possibly) obliterated, the Morganites will be faced with massive drone problems, forcing them to:
1. Switch workers to doctors
2. Spend their time building drone facilities
3. Possibly starve some of their citizens in the process of switching workers to doctors (especially if we can manage to take out the HGP too.)

Thus, they will easily lose at least 5 turns of turn advantage, and they will still be in a much weakened state afterwards. I have no doubt that a second invasion proper would prevail.

Now, what would we gain from the second invasion? True, we wouldn't get the PTS or the HGP. However, we would obtain some nice cities (although they might resort to a scorched-earth policy, in which case we could only be sure of capturing any cities on the first turn of invasion), and some fertile real-estate. In short, we'd be the masters of the northern hemisphere.

I think we should also begin thinking about plans regarding an assault on Yangland. Once we have Morgan subjugated, and once we have missle weapons, I think we'll be more than ready. I suggest that our Yangland Army consist of 10 elite 6-1-1's, 10 crypteias, and 5 defensive skirmishers (whether they are synthmetal or plasma). In my mind, this is what would constitute a minimum invasion force for Yangland. The good thing, though, about the Yang invasion is that we could more easily re-supply it than a Morgan invasion, whether by land or sea. All in all, this invasion force would only cost 500 minerals! Not too big of a price to pay for securing big juicy bases and rich jungle territory, I should say.