Sparta-Morgan Relations

[Googlie]

originally posted by Kasiopeia
I should post a "what? you think we've been intent on invading you? we're shocked."

Or maybe:

While it's true that Googlie and his pro-Morgan colleagues are not in the Junta's driving seat right now, we're shocked that you'd even think that we were contemplating invading you

(Then I can PM to arginine - who seems to be maybe leading the pro-Sparta wing of the Morgan faction - and say:

Guys, you've gotta throw me something to work with. I can't advocate dealing with you if all we get is stonewalling and griping about prior deals. Offer something for Gene Splicing at least, and let me get my influence back among the fencesitters on the Junta

That might net us a handful of credits, or a lowly tech, and then our only loss would be if the Gaians traded it to the Angels after the embargo expoired

[KrysiasKrusader]

Originally posted by Googlie


Or maybe:

While it's true that Googlie and his pro-Morgan colleagues are not in the Junta's driving seat right now, we're shocked that you'd even think that we were contemplating invading you

Don't even bother. I feel that they're throwing up a front to their own paranoism.

(Then I can PM to arginine - who seems to be maybe leading the pro-Sparta wing of the Morgan faction - and say:

Guys, you've gotta throw me something to work with. I can't advocate dealing with you if all we get is stonewalling and griping about prior deals. Offer something for Gene Splicing at least, and let me get my influence back among the fencesitters on the Junta

That might net us a handful of credits, or a lowly tech, and then our only loss would be if the Gaians traded it to the Angels after the embargo expoired

That sounds good to me.

[Kassiopeia]

Hmm.

So I'm thinking, maybe we should accept 6*15 ECs after all? We'll get their binding agreement NOT to build the CDF, which means the Builder-est faction is not a competitor any longer. OTOH, it does give them a big advantage vis-à-vis pop booming and efficiency.

[Kassiopeia]

HAH! Arginine deleted his remark. Which means that quotation Googlie has is worth a gazillion. I'm going to use it as leverage in the EthCalc negotiation. And now's the time for Googlie to throw the "give me a bone here" speech in.

[Googlie]

I see that Mead has replied:

Posted by Mead in the Embassy
Lt Col Kassiopeia

Morgan and I enjoy working with you.

The reason why we don't want to pay too much for EC is because, accepting your terms, we will be unable to build the CDF or, even worse for us, make money off trading it to other factions.

Maybe it's worth more than 6 EC per year for 15 (with your terms), but not 10 per year for 15.

Please let me know what you think.

And in the context of their initial response:

Posted by Mead in the Embassy on Oct 22nd
Thank you for your offer to sell us EC. We would like to purchase it, but considering the restrictions you are placing on its use or subsequent transfer we would like to pay 90 EC.

We offer to purchase it (with the restrictions you impose) for 6 EC per year for 15 years.

If you accept, please post your acceptance and send it to us preapproved.

Please note that this offer, of course, will no longer be available if we acquire EC from another supplier

It seems that a deal is possible. Stopping them from getting the CDF is now imperitive (if they're planning on 100 size 3 bases)

The onward trading objection is just a red herring - they know we have everone else's commlink and the likelihood of us not having done so is remote, by the time the embargo lifts

It's going to take them awhile to meet the Gaians and Angels (heck, we haven't even met them yet - unless Yang sells their commlinks (and the Gaians/Angels won't be able to steal them from Yang, as commlinks aren't something that can be stolen from the AI by another human player) and Yang isn't talking much these days.

Maybe there's a compromise of 12 ec's for 10 years with a comment like:

We understand your point of view, and are prepared to compromise somewhere between our 2 positions. Slightly more energy credits in return for a shorter embargo period.

Would this be acceptable to you?

Let's not forget the importance of EC to them, followed by GS. Now that they've got the PTS and instant size=3 bases, why make it easier for them to grow beyond that by giving them EthCalc (Dem, with its +2 growth and creches) or Gene Splicing (lifting the nutrient restrictions to facilitate that growth).

Right now, a new base of theirs starts at size 3, with 2 instant drones if no scout unit, so they have to convert a worker to a doctor to offset 1 drone (their HGP gives a talent that offsets the other) With nut restrictions in place, they're immediately hampered as to where they can plop that base. And without DEM, it's growth is limited (but that may not be a concern if they're using the Kody manoeuver to build 3 CP's in succession for further expansion.

So it is a crucial tech for them as regards the strategy they've adopted

(and in the meantime I can do my "throw me a bone" e-mail to arginine)

[Kassiopeia]

(and in the meantime I can do my "throw me a bone" e-mail to arginine)

Please do.

Thanks for the description. This is definitely a tech we mustn't let go for too easy. (Of course, someone else WILL research it, so we mustn't overdo it either.)

8*15 credits? Or maybe offer them both 10*12 and 8*15 and let them decide. And throw in the shorter embargo, yes. Eight years perhaps? Or five? we'll just have to hurry with the other possible EC sales.

[Googlie]

Here's what I sent Argy:

PM sent by Googlie to arginine

Arginine:

In the Spartan team I'm known as the leader of "the pro-Morgan wing" - partly, I guess 'cos I came over from the original Morgan team (before the private 'Poly forums were set up) and partly 'cos I've been the strongest advocate of closer relations with Morgan. (I had a plan - shot down - that would have seen both our factions leapfrog to both the EE techs by 2150). I also was advocating a deep pact, as my e-mails to Chaunk and jtsisyoda testify.

I sense from your Embassy posts that, if there is such a thing as a "pro-Sparta wing" in the Morgan team, that you are active in it, henece this missive to you.

We need to make something happen between our factions. - I sense that there's a deal there for Ethical Calculus somewhere between Kassiopeia's offer and Mead's counter - and with it, and DEM's plus 2 growth, those size 3 bases (with the PTS) can self-sustain even if they are doing nothing but churning out fresh colony pods.

(But of course, you need the nut restrictions lifted as well - that's where Gene Splicing comes in. )

But to get myself re-instated as a co-leader with Manaic (who's the self-styled "leader of the pro-Gaian wing") you guys need to throw me a bone to get a deal done and maybe get a pact back on the negotiating table.

Something like Ind Econ and 120 ec's in exchange for Ethical Calculus (but you won't build the CDF and I'll try and get the term down to 10 years or lower) and Gene Splicing (there'd be no embargo on that one as everyone else seems to have it)

That could happen this current turn (the 120 could be in instalmenys, I'm sure - 15 for 8, 12 for 10, 10 for 12, etc - something like that) and it'd go a long way towards me getting back my leadership role with the Junta.

How about it?

Googlie (re-instated to Lieutenant after a successful covert ops mission - piecing together a decent "jigsaw" map from all the infiltratiuon data re bases)

They don't have a lot of time left for their turn (24 hours maybe), but let's see what that throws up

G.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Googlie:

Correction to your post about the PTS.

It also gives them one less drone per base at size three and under. So with the HGP they don't need any police at all, let alone a doctor, and not even a recreation commons is required! All of this even in FREE MARKET.

100 size 3 bases is somewhat an exageration, but 90 would be closer to what can be done.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader
Googlie:
It also gives them one less drone per base at size three and under. So with the HGP they don't need any police at all, let alone a doctor, and not even a recreation commons is required! All of this even in FREE MARKET.

Good point, KK (I'd totally forgotten about that aspect of the PTS)

If they have enough land, then it's an awesome strategy - oodles of size-3 bases!!

(No reply from Argy yet, btw)

[KrysiasKrusader]

I used that in my first win as Morgan. Had the PTS and HGP. It was SMAC, so I couldn't pop-boom. I had, gotta be; 30 bases at size 3. My HQ was size 4 (had a rec commons and holo thaeter there). I ran all kinds of SE choices. DEMO - FREE MARKET - WEALTH when I was in peace and diplomatically isolating the player factions from each other (I mention this, cause my diplomacy is my second strongest weapon in MP games, without it - I couldn't have acieved the following). FUNDY - GREEN - WEALTH while I was building a military and probing in skirmishes. I never got infiltrated (and people tried), only one who knew what I was up to was the Planetary Governor, but I had convinced him that I could never be a threat to him, as he had size 14 bases. That I would be foolish to think that I could ever be a threat to him. Once I probed away DAP myself, I immediately started building 30 (4-1-10's), they only require 2 rows. Took me 4 turns to have about 60 of them and some sundry interceptors that I huried. I then went back to DEMO and went 100% energy, while I was staging my a/c and formers in forward positions. The others were busy squabbling amongst themselves (as I had planned), and never considered the "funny little" Morgan guy as a threat. Back home, I started building 6X-1-10's in my little factories that were monster producers for their size (sorry Maniac and Zeiter, but I didn't have any farms ). Told the Planetary Governor that I was gonna hit the Believer guy, and he should hit the Spartan guy. I went the turn before him, and sent my a/c out of my bases - so he couldn't tell that I was doing otherwise. I switched to FUNDY - GREEN - POWER. As soon as he turned on Sparta, I turned my a/c around in mid flight, and suicided on every base I could reach. My probes all came in to his coastal bases the same turn, and I lifted a land bridge to his continent on the same tuen as well. Now my army started rolling in.

Crap, this is a long story - sorry.

Any way. Just goes to show the strategy of lots of little bases with the HGP and the PTS. Coupled with shrewd diplomacy...

[Kassiopeia]

Holy crap. I wonder if we should tell this to the Gaians and Angels too ?

[Googlie]

Only if we want all 3 of us to "gang-tackle" Morgan.

To me, it just makes it all that more imperitive that we get Morgan infiltrated ASAP.

[Googlie]

Nothing happening on the trade front (are we officially going to get back to Morgan on their latest Embassy post * - or wait to see if my PM draws any kind of response from Argy?)

* - referring to this:

Posted by mead in the Embassy
Maybe it's worth more than 6 EC per year for 15 (with your terms), but not 10 per year for 15.

Please let me know what you think.

If we want to have anything inititated by them (ec's payment, tech trade) they've only a few hours left - otherwise it'll be on our watch

[KrysiasKrusader]

I really can't decide either way.
I have feelings both for AND against this.


Do what you want on this. Or do what you feel is best for our faction. I won't complain (not publicly).

[Googlie]

I'm really ambivalent too.

We'll have Doc Init in 2149, then we'll try to instabuild the MCC that year (I'll need to run our sim to see what we need by way of crawler upgrades in addition to the 2 AA's. I'll do it under 2 scenarios - with 2 AA's, then with 1 (keeping one back to kickstart the CDF if ever we get to building it)

What'll we change to in 2149? We know that Lal is currently researching HEC, so we can get that from him. All we really need is Doc Loyalty. Unless Yang traded it before he started the Command Nexus, then the Gaians won't have it (they just got Doc Mobility, one of its prereqs, from us last turn) The Angels don't yet have Doc Mobility, and while Morgan might have been able to have a run at Doc Loyalty after researching Doc Mobility, we know that he went for Doc Flex instead. And neither Zak nor Lal have it.

So any other techs we get right now will just push further back our research rate towards Loyalty and Int Int. (Of course, Morgan might right now be researching Doc Loyalty ..........)

But on balance, unless we want to be offered EE2, which does need Ind Econ as a prereq, I'm almost on the point of saying "A plague on all your houses. Come talk to us in 2160"

Of course, that stance will net us nothing else for Gene Splicing

So maybe the mandate for our Commanding Officer, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs, should be to get what he can from Morgan and the Angels for Gene Splicing before the Gaians embargo lifts, but take everything else off the table?