Sparta-Gaian relations

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Googlie
Note to file

The Gaians obtained the technologies Doctrine Mobility and Gene Splicing upon opening their 2142 turn and accepting their profferred trade to us

Both techs are embargoed for 3rd party trading for five years, so the earliest the Gaians could onward-trade either would be the 2148 year

They've just opened the 2146 year, and as 2147 is still within the 5-year embargo period, they are still 2 away from being able to offer either to the Angels

(It might be prudent for Maniac to point this out to the Gaians, so that there are no misunderstandings)

[Googlie]

And there's a lesson there for us somewhere.

We got beaten down by the Gaians as to the length of the embargo - to 5 years.

Then we got 2 turns delay in getting the Angels commlink thanks to the Gaians' internal "rule" about not mixing tech trades with commlinks (but really so that they could sell ours to the Angels in the same year they sold the Angels to us)

Then the Angels apepared deaf. Little contact, little interest, except their rant about "free flow of information"

I'd try to find out:

Have the Gaians any obligation to trade Social Psych to the Angels once they get it? (If not, then good. If yes, then what additional considerations might they be willing to give us in order to persuade us to give them Soc Psych without restrictions - perhaps agreeing not to build the CDF? - or perhaps agreeing to a 5 year extension on trading Doc Mobility to the Angels, to give us more time to reap a return on our investment)

Would the G's be willing, if we send them Soc Psych, to change immediately to Doc Loyalty and send that to us in 2147 (assuming that's when they get Soc Psych)

If we do nothing, then the Gaians will get Soc Psych as a self-researched tech in 2147, and presumably the Angels shortly thereafter, so unless we get a tech from either the Gaians or the Angels in return for sending Soc Psych, the net return will be that we lose part of our current tech superiority (of course, gifting the tech allowing the Gaians to change - and getting, say, Doc Loyalty next year also means that the Gaians (and presumably the Angels) also get Doc Loyalty next year, so that objection is somewhat spurious.)

So, IMO, we either make the best of a bad situation - and get Doc Loyalty in 2147, - prolly without any restrictions on their trading Soc Psych to the Angels (but like wise we can trade Doc Loyalty to Zal, Lal and Morgan) - or we say "A Plague on both your houses" and withdraw into isolationism and beef up our probe and transport production

If they are willing to do the Doc Loyalty exchange, I'd go for it (and how difficult will it be for them to decide that's a good thing? - they ether get Soc Psych and Doc Loyalty by 2147, or Soc Psych alone - only dimwits would choose the latter)

If they're not willing to dance with us on that one, I'd say "OK - the Junta regards this as a hostile act, so expect relations between our factions to become somewhat frosty"

[Maniac]

Sounds good to me!

So what exactly will we offer the Gaians?
SocPsych for DocLoy, but what else?

Will we suggest a trade embargo for a number of years: they can't trade SocPsych for a while, and we can't trade DocLoy for a while? Or shall we suggest mutual ownership? That is, we each own 50% of both SocPsych & DocLoy, meaning decision whether or not to sell it must be made together, and profit must be shared.

And what about the Command Nexus? Should we try to construct that even before possibly building the Maritime Control Center? Should we offer the Gaians something in order to give us free room to build it?

Better make an offer quickly before we run out of time!

[Googlie]

Turn is currently with Morgan, so we'll have it soon

We want to be able to sell/trade Doc Loyalty to Zak, Lal and Morgan, the Gaians will want to sell/trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to the Angels

That seems a pretty fair swap to me.

But I still think (as with Ethical Calculus, that the G's - and in turn the A's, must agree not to build the CDF (whether we ourselves actually go about building it is moot, it's the principle that I think is important. )

If they research Soc Psych, Eth Calc and Doc Loyalty on their own, then get Int Int, of course they are totally free to build the CDF. If, however, they get to Int Int with a leg (or two) up from us, then it's prohibited to them (The "leg-up" that they give us, by providing Doc Loyalty, is, co course, valuable in and of itself, but not to the same extent. We might, for example, forswear building certain SP's that might be considered "Gaian-type" SP's such as the Xenodome and the Pholus Mutagen)

And Yang is 10 turns away from building the Command Nexus - we have time to steal it from under their noses if we want to delay our getting the MCC and CDF (But the gaians might try for the CN, so do we need to get a prohibiton on their - or the Angels - building that too? I say "Yes"

Thus I'd see the trade as:

• We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146.
• Gaians open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted.
• The Gaians undertake not to build the Command Nexus nor the Citizens Defense Force
• In consideration of which, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome nor the Pholus Mutagen
• The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to whomsoever they wish, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (only wrt Doc Loyalty)
• We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomsoever we wish

(And this turn should we see if we can underbid the Gains in selling Social Psych to the Angels?)

Having said that, though, I also like the "common property" idea. If, say, the G's make 25 ec's from selling both Soc Psych and Doc Loyalty to the Angels, and we make, say, 25 each from Morgan, Zak and Lal, there'd be 125 ec's in the pool, with each entitled to 1/2 - so we'll give them 13 ec's (rounded) as their share. Any techs received in trade of either of those techs would be equally shared as well

[Kassiopeia]

* We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146.
* Gaians open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted.
* The Gaians undertake not to build the Command Nexus nor the Citizens Defense Force
* In consideration of which, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome nor the Pholus Mutagen
* The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to whomsoever they wish, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (only wrt Doc Loyalty)
* We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomsoever we wish

How much of this can I let the participants know? Are there details of this that I must not reveal to the other factions? Has any steps of these (mainly #1) already parts of agreements we've made with the Gaians and Angels, or is this entire set of events stuff that has not been agreed to happen yet?

I do like the idea, it'll tie everybody's hands down a bit and will secure us the SPs we really want

[Googlie]

It's all new (although Maniac has, in the Embassy, suggested that a Soc Psych for Doc Loyalty trade - with possible SP embargoes - might be in the works. (I believe he's asked for confirmation from them that they'll be able to switch to Doc layalty upon getting Soc Psych next turn.

So I'd give the Gaians the whole package (with the revenue sharing added)

Originally posted by Googlie

• We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146.
• Gaians open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted.
• The Gaians undertake not to build the Command Nexus nor the Citizens Defense Force
• In consideration of which, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome nor the Pholus Mutagen
• The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to whomsoever they wish, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (only wrt Doc Loyalty)
• We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomsoever we wish
• Both techs will be treated as "common Property" so that any income - or additional techs - derived from their trading to 3rd parties will be shared equally between the Gaian Federation and the Spartan Federation

(thus, if the G's make, say, 25 ec's from selling both Soc Psych and Doc Loyalty to the Angels, and we make, say, 25 each from Morgan, Zak and Lal, there'd be 125 ec's in the pool, with each entitled to 1/2 - so Sparta would sent to the Gaians 13 ec's (rounded) as their share. Any techs received in trade of either of those techs would be equally shared as well)

How much of this we expose to the Angels, though, I'm not sure. I'm expecting that they'll send Biogenetics, pre-accepted, to us, so that when I click "accept" they'll get Gene Splicing and we'll have Biogenetics. That might be enough for this turn, as if we go on a serious 3-way leapfrog towards Fusion or D:AP, it'll need quite some co-ordination among our 3 factions

(And in order to get Maniac's question answered, he might need to give someone on the Gaians side a primer on how the tech projector works - Darsnan, maybe, as he seems to be quite technically inclined)

[Maniac]

Illuminatus:

Since Spartan Federation has shown that it is easily willing to change terms of agreed trades, and has decided to increase prices for us, I do not think that simply giving you level 2 technology for level 1 will be acceptable. Surely you can increase your offer? And we will be able to provide you with Doctrine: Loyalty next year, if this is what you wanted to know.

I feel a sudden temptation to start bombarding their road network.

Shall we point out that if do not trade them, they only get SocPsych, a level one tech. And that therefore this trade should be considered an arrangement where we both get DocLoy, and not a SocPsych<->DocLoy trade?

[Googlie]

Exactly

Almost tempting to let them stew in their own juice

But I guess Kassi logged out earlier today before he read my reply to his post above.

Why don't I just copy it to the Embassy, in his absence? (It's almost a perfect reply to Illuminatus' post there - perhaps expanded by a preamble "This is much more than simply a Soc Psych for Doc Loyalty deal")

Or Maniac, since you've posted already, prior to Illum's response, maybe you could post the full deal proposal, with the suggested preamble?

[Maniac]

I need to leave to Ghent soon. Could you please post it?

[Kassiopeia]

I can do it!

[Kassiopeia]

I also posted a stern rebuttal to Illuminatus' whingeing about us changing accepted agreements in that other thread.

[Kassiopeia]

Illuminatus doesn't seem to be going with it.

Do we push? Should we throw in stipulations that we won't build "Gaian" SPs?

[Googlie]

Why not send the big one (with the bullets - 7 or so posts above) It's a more liberal offer on our part and has a connotation of wanting to partner with them

(btw - I responded in the other Embassy thread re: the 5 or 6 years' embargo)

Posted by Googlei in the Embassy
My Dear Lord Illuminatus:

Permit me, if I may, enter this discussion.

In 2141 the Gaians placed Industrial Base and Industrial Automation in the diplomatic tray, with a "negotiating" status. We reciprocated that same year with our technologies, under "accepted" status. The Gaians received these technologies upon opening the turn at the beginning of year 2142, and we received your technologies at the end of 2142, (we are last in turn order, and the year changes when we send the turn to the Gaians) Five years must elapse before the technology is free of any embargo. Therefore the years 2143, 2144, 2145, 2146 and 2147 must end before the embargo expires. Thus 2148 is the earliest that the Gaians can onward trade the technology. (of course, within our interpertation you would be within your rights to offer the technology in 2147 for ratification and acceptance by a third party in 2148, but not if offered in 2147 on a pre-accepted basis)

To argue otherwise is to introduce the element of Turn Order into any deals that have a term (as there are five other factions whose turns are played between the Gaians receiving a benefit and the Spartans receiving a commensurate benefit)

But we are pleased that you have seen fit, while disagreeing, to accept our interpretation in this instance.

Don't know if that will mollify them a little or not

[Maniac]

Heh, I'm in Gent here, testing out my brand new laptop, and sneakily using some wireless network which happens to be somewhere around here.

Should we throw in the following argument in the discussion?
If we don't build the Command Nexus soon, the Hive will. Which means the Gaians will be forced to fights masses of Hive units, two morale levels stronger than they would normally be. And as stupid as the AI may be in combat, when you have to fight a constant stream of impact units when you have at most laser units, it'll be difficult indeed.

[Googlie]

Of course the Gaians could build the CN if they get Soc Psych from us and switch to Doc Loyalty (might even have it built that same turn, before we even see the tech)

That is, assuming the "we" in your post referred to us, Sparta, and not to us, a human-controlled faction