Sparta-Gaian relations

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
I agree. Perhaps Kass should add a post to the Embassy tech trading thread along the lines of:

Sounds great.
May I suggest an addition to the second protocol to be on the safe side? New is the italic bold text:

• Embargo on third party onward trading: - Onward trading (to any third party, human or AI) is prohibited by both Sparta and Gaia for a 20 year period following such trade exchange (subject to variance by mutual agreement between Sparta and Gaia). Nor is it allowed to turn over control to another faction of a unit with new weapons, abilities, etc... derived from a traded tech.

The reason is because in the previous ACDG the Consciousness and Drones signed an agreement not to trade High Energy Chemistry to third parties. The Drones didn't trade the technology itself (at least not immediately), but they did send a plasma garrison prototype to the Hive, thereby giving them the main advantage of HEC after all.

[Googlie]

I concur

Perhaps though with a similar 20 turn closed window?

Kass can always say "The Full Junta has now deliberated and have added the dollowing codicil to point # 2 ............................."

G.

[Zeiter]

Yes, definitely add that too.

I'm starting to feel a little unsettled...it seems like everyone has met everyone else a while ago, and they've all been having one great big party without us. It's going to be difficult to get any firm alliances going if the others have already pacted with each other. Might they be planning a three-pronged attack as we speak? Or maybe it's just the xenoburritos making me paranoid.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Zeiter
Yes, definitely add that too.

I'm starting to feel a little unsettled...it seems like everyone has met everyone else a while ago, and they've all been having one great big party without us. It's going to be difficult to get any firm alliances going if the others have already pacted with each other. Might they be planning a three-pronged attack as we speak? Or maybe it's just the xenoburritos making me paranoid.

yeah lay off the tamales

I'm a bit unsettled as well. We definately need more information. But that isn't an easy thing to get at this stage of the game. If they are allied (possibly against us) we may have to resort to aligning with the hive. Perhaps we can pay off the hive to attack someone as we were discussing earlier. I still like that plan. Although that would be a failure if that faction in question ended up taking several hive cities .

I say we make an attempt at a pact with the gaians. If we cannot do so we need to make other plans. We can't waste precious turns on a lost cause.

[Googlie]

Let's not get paranoid (I saw that in the ACDGII, where teams were anticipating the worst)

What are the facts that we currently know:

Morgan

Morgan has the Hive and the Gaians commlinks, doesn't have ours or the PK's or the Uni, and we don't know if he has the Angels'

They just got Doc Flex in 2139, so the best they can have done by now is rushed a probe foil if they had enough spare ec's. At worst, a trannie with 2 probe teams might be setting off our way this current turn

They don't have Applied Physics nor Nonlinear math, so their best weapon is still the level 1 gun

Their best armor is Synthmetal, as they don't yet have Applied Physics, a building block to HEC's Plasma Armor (But they might have 3-res armor - see below)

If they are going for the Planetary Energy Grid (I would if I were them) then they'll have detoured thru Prog Psych (which together with Ind Econ, which they have, leads to Adaptive Economics) thus they might have thought it worth their while to collect Field Modulation on the way (needed Cent Ecol as well for that)

I'm betting that they've not yet, though

I see their techs as:

Level 1 techs

• Ind Base (they started with that)
• Biogenetics (they did complete the HGP)
• Infonets (they needed that to go thru it and Plan Nets to Ind Auto)
• Doc Mobility (a stepping stone to Doc Flex which they got last turn)
• Centauri Ecology (they did start the WP in 2138 and discontinued it in 2139)

Level 2 techs

• Planetary Networks (a prereq for Ind Auto - and they did start the VW in 2138, dropping it in 2139)
• Industrial Economics (also a prereq for Ind Auto)
• Doctrine Flexibility

Level 3 techs

• Industrial Automation

That's 9 techs (compared to our 8 techs) and we're neck and neck in the powerbar chart, even although Morgan has that SP. If he had 10 techs, then I think we'd see a significant difference between us in the powergraphs (our wxtra pops offset their SP) So he can't have done any trading for techs with the Gaians or with Yang

So I'm guessing they're researching Social Psych (needed for >>>Ethical Calculus and >>> Gene Splicing) or Progenitor Psych (which together with Industrial Economics opens the way to Adaptive Economics and the PEG)

And I bet the latter, as there is no immediate need for Rec Commons so long as they get the +1 talent from the HGP (and an energy bank in every base will crop them a psych boost as well after they build the PEG)

While Gene Splicing is good in that it gives the nuts boost, does Morgan really want a few huge bases, or many size 4 bases? (with a talent, 2 workers, a doctor and crawlers everywhere) Right now I'd say they're going for more bases (their pop went from 11 in 2138 to 10 in 2139, indicating that they are still producing colony pods)

So right now I wouldn't be too worried about Morgan

[Googlie]

The Gaians

The Gaians have the Angels and Morgan's commlink, are in Vendetta with the Hive, and lack the PK's and the Uni's links

They don't have Applied Physics nor Nonlinear math, so their best weapon is still the level 1 gun

Their best armor is Synthmetal, as they don't yet have Applied Physics, a building block to HEC's Plasma Armour

They have started The Weather Paradigm, so we can assume that their bases are producing crawlers like crazy (as they have nothing to upgrade them to, unless they have "Secrets" and can trance them, which helps a little)

We are significanly ahead of them in the powerbar charts, but that could be due as much to our 15 versus 11 population as anything else)

I see their techs as:

Level 1 techs

• Industrial Base (which they needed for Ind Auto)
• InfoNets (which they needed for PlanNets and Planned
• Centauri Ecology (their starting tech)
• Social Psych (see reasoning below)
• Biogenetics (see reasoning below)

Level 2 techs

• Planetary Networks (needed to run Planned)
• Industrial Economics (needed to move on to Ind Auto)

Level 3 tech

• Ind Auto

That only gives them 6 techs, and I reckon they must have at least 8, (on a par with us), so I'm guessing their tech stream is either:

Social Psych and Biogenetics, en route to Secrets then Centauri Empathy (Cent Ecol being its other prerequisite) - so they might have the first 2 of that set

or

Social Psych and Ethical calculus (en route to gene Splicing) which also needs Biogenetics

So my deduction is that we can add Social Psych and Biogenetics to the Gaians list

So I don't see the Gaians as too much of a threat to us right now

[Googlie]

Data Angels

We have the least information on the Angels

They have the Hive and the Gaians commlinks, don't have ours or the PK's or the Uni, and we don't know if they have Morgan's

They don't have Applied Physics nor Nonlinear Math, so their best weapon is still the level 1 gun

Their best armor is Synthmetal, as they don't yet have Applied Physics, a building block to HEC's Plasma Armor - but they do have Industrial Base, a stepping stone to ind Auto, which they have (running Wealth)

The techs they have that we know for sure:

Level 1 techs

• Ind Base (see above)
• Infonets (they start with that)
• Centauri Ecology (It doesn't show up for us as a tech we can trade them)

Level 2 techs

• Planetary Networks (they start with that)
• Industrial Economics (also a prereq for Ind Auto)

Level 3 techs

• Industrial Automation

That's only 6 techs (compared to our 8 techs) and we're just slightly ahead in the powerbar charts, which might easily be explained by our 15 pops versus their 13

They are lacking Applied Physics and Doc Mobility from the level 1 techlist, so I'm guessing that they've researched Social Psych (rec commons are essential for the Angels to offset their -1 POLICE ) and Scerets of the Human Brain (to try for the HGP and alleviate their drone problems)

These latter 2 are surmises, though, lacking information on them as we are.

But right now I wouldn't be overly worried about the Data Angels

[Googlie]

I see that they have completed The Weather Paradigm (PlanetVoice Issue #7)

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
The Gaians

They have started The Weather Paradigm, so we can assume that their bases are producing crawlers like crazy (as they have nothing to upgrade them to, unless they have "Secrets" and can trance them, which helps a little)

According to the Voice of Planet, they've already built the Weather Paradigm.

Reading tabloids can be useful from time to time after all.

Edit: Ah, crosspost

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
May I suggest an addition to the second protocol to be on the safe side? New is the italic bold text:

Nor is it allowed to turn over control to another faction of a unit with new weapons, abilities, etc... derived from a traded tech.

I'm not sure if Illuminatus has visited recently, but I used my mod powers to edit and add the clause to the protocols (as Kass is prolly otherwise engaged right now)

[Kassiopeia]

Googlie: Nice of you to edit that in to spare me the trouble, but *please* from now on use the UBB editor, not the WYSIWYG editor. For some strange reason it somehow redefines the post when you edit it with the latter editing mode on so that I can't edit it any longer with Mozilla Firefox. I'd have to use IE just to edit my own posts, since the WYSIWYG editing mode is "IE 5.0 or higher only".

I would have been here earlier, but my Internet connection was down.

[Googlie]

Sorry about that (I didn't know there was a diff.

I see, btw, that the Gaians have asked for a clarification"

Originally posted in the Embassy by the Gaians
We have been discussing your proposal, and request clarification of your first "rule". Specifically, it could be interpreted to mean that each of us is compelled to agree to a trade proposed by the other involving equal-level technologies

No compulsion is intended. Rather the intent was to avoid "frivolous" offers of a level 2 for a level 5, on the basis that "a tech's a tech, and costs the same whatever level it is" regardless of the relative importance/usefulness of the techs in question.

But it does beg the question "Are 2 level 2 techs worth 1 level 4?" and so on

[Kassiopeia]

I didn't know there was a difference either. No harm done, I need not edit it any longer.

I gave them a clarification - I didn't quite fully understand that part myself; I should have cleared it up myself too before posting it.

[KrysiasKrusader]

There are too many threads that seem to be redundant (to me any ways. ) But I guess that this is the most appropriate to post this thing in...

There were a few (three actually) e-mails commenting on my new look (avatar, signature, and people noticing that I'm now in the ACDG Spartan camp) waiting for me when I got back home...
(thanks again to those of you who helped with the outfitting of my new uniform. People have taken notice.)

On a whim; I followed them up with casual chatter, which gradually led me to decide to test how deep I could get into the Gaian camps water.

I *think* I can maybe get some talks going with someone who will have the ear of the Gaian high council.

Now. I just stopped short of continuing on that tract and changed the subject to other things - while leaving the door open...

Nobody worry. No secrets, or information, were given away, except that you guys know more about computer stuff than I do - which if you know me already - is no real secret (laugh!).

Question now is:

Does the Junta wish me to explore this further?

I don't want to put myself in the place of Major Kassiopeia, nor want to become ambassador to the Gaians, or nothing lke that.

If this amounts to anything, it would be just to speed up any kind of agreement we can manage or desire.

If the answer is; "yes, I should try and persue this", then we really need to form some kind of long term foreign policy towards the Gaians and the other factions. Otherwise, for the time being untill we know where were heading for sure, it will be useless for me to try and persue this.

Edit: spelling

[Googlie]

Well, part of the enjoyment of these ACDG games is in the roleplaying. And each faction puts unique structure around how they are organized, especially as regards alignment with their core beliefs and philosophies.

The last game came unstuck for a while 'cos friends (and even brothers) were in different camps but chatted and exchanged opinions and ideas (and in one or two instances, even exchanged information)

If I'm not mistaken it also led to Jamski's ouster from the Hive and adoption by the CyCon. But as the CMN I had to rap knuckles a couple of times when players from different factions chatted in ICQ about the game when their respective factions hadn't even met

So while not disparaging entrepreneurial efforts, I think we should stick to roleplaying the Spartans as a faction and follow the structure that we adopt.

This will mean, as we get into a more involved game, that we need to get our most active posters more involved in taking control of facets of our empire. Perhaps each human team needs a separate ambassador, and these 3 ambassadors discuss bilateral and 3-way tech trades and bring recommendations to the Junta for approval (and maybe it's a combo of a human team and an AI responsibility). So Kass, for example, might have responsibility for dealings with the Gaians and, say, the PK's while KK holds responsibility for the Morganites and, say, the University.

More importantly, I think we need to get some devolved responsibility for Home Operations (ie build orders, research, etc) - and Maniac has proven skilled at this.

For my sins I have assumed Engineering (terraforming & crawlers) and covert ops responsibilities - I'll be happy to give up Engineering to anyone else that has the inclination

Diss is our Head of Naval Operations - with 2 (soon to be 3) gunfoils and 2 trannies (soon to be 3) we are developing a nice little merchant and armed navy. Diss is commandant of the SCC Invincible and Primus Pilus commands the SCC Hunter

Then there's our army. Wheh we started we gave each player a unit to control (an army "division", really). Zeiter took the first, named Corazon Reconnaissance Vehicle 112 (or R-112 for short). Andemagne took the next (Chiron Knights) and I took the one after (Rolling Thunder) until it was tragically lost in the great mindworm battle of 2132. Kass is the CO of Shinsengumi and Warhog is commanded by Diss.

To my knowldge we have not named a CO for the 1st Infantry Division

Of course the original intent was that in the early game the various commanders would instruct the turnplayer where to move the units, recognizing that deeper into the game we'd need to specialize in army, navy, airforce, covert ops, engineering, produxtion, etc etc

I think that time has come (see my "new decade" thread) - so maybe we need to pause and think seriously about who does what again (especially as some of the players, like GeneralTactitus and Jamski are virtually absent)