Game Discussion, Turn 2121 - 2140

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Zeiter
BTW, is that northern worm an ordinary worm?

It's a spore launcher. Basically PSI artillery. A bit more explanation is on page 14 of the SMAX manual (see Datalinks).

[Maniac]

Midturn Battle Report MY 2134

• As already known, Rolling Thunder destroyed.
• SC2 builds former Tomcat-4. That one helps Tomcat err... -2 to complete the road between SC2 and SC1/OA. SC2 production set to probe team.
• Morganites have obtained Doctrine: Mobility. Morganites have also started constructing the WP, ME and HGP. Would they really already have enough crawlers to finish all of those? To be continued next year no doubt.
• Angels have shrunk to population size 6. Some serious expansion??
• OA has grown to size 2. Second worker put on the rocky minerals tile.
• Probe taskforce moving further towards Great Collective. Unless a unit is placed in the way, we should be able to infiltrate the Hive next year.
• Nutrient forest near SC4 finished. SC4 worker switched from crater farm (now free for new base) to nutrient forest.
• Fort Buster (suggestion of Zeiter IIRC) founded and production set to formers. The worker working the crater farm => base production 2-4-3 (minus one for inefficiency => 2-4-2). As a consequence of passing the bureaucracy limit, we got an extra drone in SC2.
• R-112 succesfully moved onto the fungus tile.
• Alien artifact moved deeper into our territory, into SC2. IIRC artillery (such as spore launchers are) can destroy artifacts with one bombard attack, so I wouldn't want to take any risks.
• Units not yet moved: Shrek, 1st Infantry (in SC2), Warwag, Shinsengumi. Reason I waited: how should we handle the drones?
  
  Shrek can move back from GH to SC2 to quell both drones there.
  
  I assume Shinsengumi will move out to kill the eastern mind worm. That leaves OA empty. Warwag can move two east to garrison the base and control the drone. Though another option could be to move Warwag three east, to the same position as Shinsengumi would be after killing the eastern worm. From that position Warwag could next year directly strike at the wounded worm boil or spore launcher, which Shinsengumi with one MP less would probably not be able to do. What to do?
  Benefit is we have a higher chance of getting more money faster. (less chance a native unit disappears before the slower Shinsengumi can get to it).
  Downside is in case the move-out-of-base option would be chosen, that leaves OA without drone controller for a short moment. Solutions to that problem could be appoint a doctor in OA for this turn. Other options could be to move the infantry units from SC1 or SC2 to OA and appoint a doctor in respectively SC1 or GH.
  
• We have 70 credits in reserve. Will we use some of those or keep saving them for later? We could eg hurry and finish the CP production in SC1 for 24 credits. Currently the CP is four turns away from completion.
  Advantage: we can sooner establish a base on our eastern coast for faster power projection towards Zakharov who's probably there. Hurrying would also free the SC1 garrison to move to OA and garrison it, allowing Warwag to move three east.
  Drawback: it costs money we can no longer use for something else.
  
• SC4 will grow in three turns, SC3 in four, GH in five and SC2 in six. I assume Warwag will in some 5-6 turns certainly be back from worm hunting and thus able to perform one of the needed garrison duties. Chiron Knights can also come back in time to garrison GH or SC2. If I didn't confuse while counting, Fiona won't be able to make it in time though to counter the next drone wave: one turn too late to garrison GH on time.
  This means we lack one unit to counter the drones soon to appear in our Crater-Industrial Complex. Without the worms trouble in the east Warwag would have been perfectly able to handle those drones, but the unfortunate circumstances have made that impossible. As SC4 will already grow in three turns, now we can only get a garrison available in time when we recruit one in SC3 or Fort Buster. Two options thus IMO. Which base to pick?
  
  Fort Buster has just been established and has 10 minerals in store. It can immediately build a scout patrol finished next turn.
  Sector Craterwest is currently producing a colony pod, with 4 minerals already accumulated. If we hurry a former production in Fort Buster for 15 credits, we can get a road built on the central crater tile in two turns, connecting SC3 and SC4. This would allow a SC3 scout patrol to move directly after completion to SC4, just in time for the base growth and extra drones.
  (Personally I'd prefer building the scout patrol in SC3. It means delaying CP production there, but that's a good thing here I think, as it allows us to build a former in Fort Buster. With that former we should have sufficient time to build a road north of FB, towards the future coastal base site.)
  Oh yeah, as SC4 will complete a colony pod the turn after it grows to size 2, that same scout patrol could be used to counter the new drone in SC3 the turn after.

[Maniac]

Just had a little idea.
How about for this turn we change production in two of our minus-ten-minerals-completed bases to the Virtual World and Weather Paradigm? That could give the Morganites a fit if they don't have enough crawlers yet to finish all their projects.

[Maniac]

Oh yeah, forgot something

[Zeiter]

Morgan has doc:mob? Okay, then contact Yang ASAP and try to sell him doc:mob for credits. If he asks for something else, just refuse the trade. But we need to do this before the Morganites sell it to him. That is, if Yang doesn't have mobility already.

Can we also infer that the Morganites are aiming for probe foils with their researching doc:mob? Better get some probe defenses up soon then, although we still have some time.

I assume Shinsengumi will move out to kill the eastern mind worm. That leaves OA empty. Warwag can move two east to garrison the base and control the drone. Though another option could be to move Warwag three east, to the same position as Shinsengumi would be after killing the eastern worm. From that position Warwag could next year directly strike at the wounded worm boil or spore launcher, which Shinsengumi with one MP less would probably not be able to do. What to do?

What if we kept Shinsengumi in OA, and waited until next turn for both worms to approach OA? Shinsengumi could then kill both without ever moving out of the base. What are the chances that the worms will try to approach OA next turn?

Or, we can kill the eastern worm with shinsengumi, and place warwag in OA. This is what I would prefer. Then, next turn move shinsengumi back into OA, and move warwag north and attack the wounded MW. Then the turn after that, warwag (assuming it doesn't take too much damage) can go get the spore launcher. In the meantime, the drones are fully taken care of in OA. This is actually what I would prefer.

(Personally I'd prefer building the scout patrol in SC3. It means delaying CP production there, but that's a good thing here I think, as it allows us to build a former in Fort Buster. With that former we should have sufficient time to build a road north of FB, towards the future coastal base site.)

Yep, that sounds right. And also, we should try to pass off any units in the area costing support to Fort Buster, which gives us two more "free support slots", if you will.

We have 70 credits in reserve. Will we use some of those or keep saving them for later? We could eg hurry and finish the CP production in SC1 for 24 credits. Currently the CP is four turns away from completion.

Definitely spend the credits. Get that CP out on the east coast as soon as possible and commence the probing.

Our population is truly exploding, it seems. We'll probably need to build several cheap scout patrols in the near future.

Morganites have started on 3 SP's? If they finish them all next turn, I'll eat my hat.

...although, surely such an impressive feat would provoke a sort of grand alliance of all 3 other human factions against the Morganites.

Missing out on the WP sure is a bummer though...

Oh well. Things are really cooking now.

[Maniac]

Full turn report in the topped thread.

Originally posted by Zeiter
Morgan has doc:mob? Okay, then contact Yang ASAP and try to sell him doc:mob for credits. If he asks for something else, just refuse the trade. But we need to do this before the Morganites sell it to him. That is, if Yang doesn't have mobility already.

I did as you suggested, but unfortunately Yang wasn't interested.

Can we also infer that the Morganites are aiming for probe foils with their researching doc:mob? Better get some probe defenses up soon then, although we still have some time.

I think too that's indeed the likely target if they're researching Doctrine: Mobility. Or perhaps they've obtained the comm frequency of the Angels and are researching it for them?

Or, we can kill the eastern worm with shinsengumi, and place warwag in OA. This is what I would prefer.

Therefore that's what I have done.
The worms have moved to the same square, so Warwag can attack both worms next year already, and Shinsengumi can retreat for repairs as you suggest. Btw, do we want to move Shinsengumi back to OA, or first let it pay a visit to the monolith for instant repairs? The scout patrol in SC1 could act as temporary OA garrison for that turn if wanted.

Yep, that sounds right. And also, we should try to pass off any units in the area costing support to Fort Buster, which gives us two more "free support slots", if you will.

Ah yes, good point. FB will support a former next year, but still has one support slot free. Currently they're no units to rehome in the Crater area, but after the worm mess has been dealt with, perhaps Shinsengumi (or Chiron Knights when it reaches our bases) could be sent on a trip west to rehome.

Definitely spend the credits. Get that CP out on the east coast as soon as possible and commence the probing.

With pleasure. The base should get founded around MY 2139 or '40 I think. Will we immediately start transport foil production then, or first another item?
Also, will we let the CP be accompanied by an escort/garrison unit, or not? Problem is of course we don't know where the bureaucracy drones will appear, and whether the new base will immediately need a garrison for that.

Our population is truly exploding, it seems. We'll probably need to build several cheap scout patrols in the near future.

Add to the list of fast-growing bases Sparta Command. With the CP now hurried, it will grow back to size 2 in five turns!
Some extra scout patrols will probably indeed be necessary. Though I don't have a clear sight right now how many would be necessary when. As I don't know when, besides the eastern coastal base, the other two new bases will be founded.

Morganites have started on 3 SP's? If they finish them all next turn, I'll eat my hat.

I'll remember that.

...although, surely such an impressive feat would provoke a sort of grand alliance of all 3 other human factions against the Morganites.

That would be great if it happened. Perhaps we could get other factions to pay us for conquering or weakening the Morganites.


Btw, I've got a couple of questions for next year.

What should Sector Cratersouth's former (Tomcat-3 IIRC) do next year, now it has finished the nutrient forest? Possible options include moving a tile north and building a farm there, or eg moving to the tile east of SC4 and build a road. Or something else?

Same question for the two formers on the tile east of SC2. What's the priority? Building a road between SC2 and GH? Now the worm danger has been dealt with, move north again to mine that rocky minerals in record speed? Or something else?

And how should R-112 head? Go straight to the Hive bases we see signs of, or try to avoid them?

[Maniac]

A question for those in favour of a base near the Hive borders: On what tile exactly would you prefer to found a base?

[Zeiter]

A question for those in favour of a base near the Hive borders: On what tile exactly would you prefer to found a base?

I was thinking that the tile west of where Fiona is now would be best. It overlooks a chokepoint (the Fungal Pass), it has a min bonus and some beautiful rolling/rainy tiles near it, it has an energy bonus offshore, and it's barely within our borders. Perhaps on the next transport trip we can ferry a CP down there.

The worms have moved to the same square, so Warwag can attack both worms next year already, and Shinsengumi can retreat for repairs as you suggest. Btw, do we want to move Shinsengumi back to OA, or first let it pay a visit to the monolith for instant repairs? The scout patrol in SC1 could act as temporary OA garrison for that turn if wanted.

I would just let Shinsengumi repair in OA. Then, we can send the scout patrol in SC1 to escort and possibly provide drone control for the new east coast base, if necessary.

Add to the list of fast-growing bases Sparta Command. With the CP now hurried, it will grow back to size 2 in five turns!

I'm starting to wonder if a future switch to police state would be advantageous. In such a case, we could quell 6 drones in every city and not have to worry very much about supporting those 3 scout patrols. If we wanted to go with an almost solely probe-raping strategy, we could even run planned too simultaneously. We could do this until our infrastructure was built up, stealing tech in the meantime, and then we could switch out of planned and/or PS and focus then on research if we wanted to. I don't know. It's somewhat of an unorthodox strategy. I know PS doesn't traditionally have a lot of supporters, but if ever there was a faction that PS perfectly suited (besides Yang), it would be a Spartan faction with a booming population in need of drone control, such as we will soon be. On the surface, PS looks like the anti-builder SE choice, but maybe in this circumstance it would actually make us better builders. I don't know. Difficult to say. We'd have to carefully consider such an approach.

What should Sector Cratersouth's former (Tomcat-3 IIRC) do next year, now it has finished the nutrient forest? Possible options include moving a tile north and building a farm there, or eg moving to the tile east of SC4 and build a road. Or something else?

We'll soon need some more farms as our crater bases grow. So a farm would be a viable option, I think. No need for a road there, as the center crater road will connect all three.

Same question for the two formers on the tile east of SC2. What's the priority? Building a road between SC2 and GH? Now the worm danger has been dealt with, move north again to mine that rocky minerals in record speed? Or something else?

I suggest getting that mine+road on that rocky min tile pronto. We'll practically be an industrial giant after that's completed.

As for R-112, my gut feeling is to sniff around a bit. We're not going to get a chance to scout around there again, so better milk it for all it's worth. In addition, if any of the other humans get into a war with Yang, we could possibly glean some ECs or tech or something for our valuable map of the Hive interior. (Although I wouldn't dare think about giving them our map info until they had already figured out where we were.)

Edit: I saw that you have the southern AA all by itself. I'm a little leary about doing that. I almost never leave an AA unescorted, as I've had too many bad past experiences with MWs going after my AAs. For some reason they seem to love attacking those AAs. Better to have the rover get back a little later than to lose 1/4 of an SP, or 1 future tech.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Zeiter
I was thinking that the tile west of where Fiona is now would be best. It overlooks a chokepoint (the Fungal Pass), it has a min bonus and some beautiful rolling/rainy tiles near it, it has an energy bonus offshore, and it's barely within our borders. Perhaps on the next transport trip we can ferry a CP down there.

Ok. According to the simulation I played this afternoon, we could settle a base there around MY 2141 IIRC. It'll take four turns to produce the CP (and we can't hurry as it'll take three more turns for SC4 to grow to size 2) and two turns to move to a coastal area to be picked up by our transport. That'll give our trannie some free time to explore a bit in the west after dropping off the probe team.

I would just let Shinsengumi repair in OA. Then, we can send the scout patrol in SC1 to escort and possibly provide drone control for the new east coast base, if necessary.

Edit: I saw that you have the southern AA all by itself. I'm a little leary about doing that. I almost never leave an AA unescorted, as I've had too many bad past experiences with MWs going after my AAs. For some reason they seem to love attacking those AAs. Better to have the rover get back a little later than to lose 1/4 of an SP, or 1 future tech.

Copy that. Will be done. Just for the record, the reason I sent the Chiron Knights forward instead of escorting the Alien Artifact was so it could serve as a garrison unit when the pending population growth wave hit. However the lack of CK can easily be compensated if as next production item we build a scout patrol in both SC1 (to compensate the scout patrol escorting the new CP) and OA (to create a new garrison instead of the Knights for SC2 or GH). Is that all right?

Btw, I played a simulation test until MY 2144, when we should have our three planned bases founded, and compared to the number we have now, we'll probably need to build around seven extra scout patrols to satisfy our drone control needs. We'll probably grow to 19 pops, and will have to deal with an increase of drones due to passing the bureaucracy limit and also due to simple base growth.
The number of extra police units we'd need could of course be a little higher or lower, as b-drones depend on factors I haven't bothered to take into account.

I'm starting to wonder if a future switch to police state would be advantageous.

I agree switching to Police State probably will be advantageous for us in many circumstances. Especially after we get Intellectual Integrity: we could get quell 9 drones. As you say, that makes it a great builder's choice for us. Perhaps even better than Free Market. After all, a size 9 base would get some 10 extra energy due to running FM. But on the other side, due to FM's negative police rating, it would have to spend 18 psych or build expensive facilities (hologram theatres, research hospitals) to control all those drones.

I'm not so sure running Police State at the same time of Planned would be in our benefit though. -4 Efficiency more or less means losing all energy except in our HQ. That's IMHO a rather big penalty, bigger than the benefits of +2 Gro & +1 Ind. Running Police State (PS)-Simple or especially PS-Green sounds better I think.

We'll soon need some more farms as our crater bases grow. So a farm would be a viable option, I think. No need for a road there, as the center crater road will connect all three.

An extra farm will indeed be useful soon. Just to clarify, a road east of Sector Cratersouth would not be to connect the three crater bases, but to build a road between SC4 and GH/SC2, or more generally speaking our crater bases and the eastern half of our empire.

I suggest getting that mine+road on that rocky min tile pronto. We'll practically be an industrial giant after that's completed.

As for R-112, my gut feeling is to sniff around a bit. We're not going to get a chance to scout around there again, so better milk it for all it's worth.

Ok, I'll let R-112 follow the river track leading NW, away from those base radii.

In addition, if any of the other humans get into a war with Yang, we could possibly glean some ECs or tech or something for our valuable map of the Hive interior. (Although I wouldn't dare think about giving them our map info until they had already figured out where we were.)

Giving them our full world map in-game probably wouldn't be necessary though. We could just give them a screenshot of the relevant Hive areas. (At least that was allowed in the previous ACDG IIRC. I guess it would be now too.)

[Maniac]

I've played the turn with the suggestions made here above. I'll try to post screenshots with the probe taskforce and R-112 situation later.

[Maniac]

Midturn Battle Report MY 2136

• That synthmetals that was in the way last year has moved a tile east, so the probe team was able to infiltrate the Hive. It succeeded and was able to return unharmed to Sector Cratersouth. I'll write a covert ops report soon.
• SC3 builds scout patrol. Set to CP. OA builds formers. Set to scout patrol.
• All crater base are now road-connected.
• Tomcat-3 starts cultivating a farm on (52.18).
• Newly recruited 3d Infantry Brigade moves from SC3 to SC4, as that base will grow next turn.
• All units in OA (scout patrol, CP, three formers) move one tile north. Except Shinsengumi, which is under repair this turn.
• R-112 continues its forced expedition into the deepest of Hive territory. It ran into a former, but was not contacted. Despite obviously not liking us trespassing Hive territory and therefore having a belligerent attitude towards us, Yang remains awfully silent and doesn't demand a withdrawal.
• Warwag moves into OA. One MP left. Proceed further to SC2 and repair there, or make a quick visit to the monolith?
• SCC Hunter has now 10 of the necessary 20 minerals accumulated in Gythium Harbour. Hurrying would cost 18 credits. We currently have 72 credits in reserve and make 10 credits per year. Hurry it or not?
  Something to keep in mind in case we're planning to invade Zakharov: It would be useful to have 110 credits in reserve just before we are about to launch the invasion. With those credits we could upgrade the Chiron Knights and Warwag to impact rovers for respectively 60 and 50 credits. Together with a newly built impact rover in SC2, that would give us three elite impact rovers, which would be a decent initial invasion force I think.

[Zeiter]

I'd let Warwag repair in SC2.

Hurrying SCC Hunter would be a great idea, I think.

Yes, 3 elite impact rovers at this point would be devastating. We'd just need to make sure they don't get probed away. Having infiltration on the University beforehand would help with that.

I definitely agree about selling doc:flex to Zak and Lal. Also try to sell them Yang's commlink if they're still interested.

Re: covert ops info -

It seems the Hive is mightier than we thought. Looks like they have several juicy techs ripe for the taking. I'm surprised they have NLmath already.

It's a pity that we won't be able to beat the Hive to that southern base site. Perhaps we could set up a base 3 tiles to the NE, on that solar collector? Then, we can immediately follow up with a base on that fungal pass spot we were aiming for, since the boundaries will be redrawn.

Gaians at war with the Hive? Ouch! Perhaps it would be a good idea to contact the Gaians and form some sort of anti-Hive alliance (in return for some healthy compensation, of course). We're going to be probe-raping Yang soon anyway. Of course, before we declare war on Yang, we will probably want to get R-112 out of there first. I'm sure Yang will demand a withdrawl any day now anyway.

BTW, what do the population numbers and powerchart look like now?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Zeiter
I'd let Warwag repair in SC2.
Hurrying SCC Hunter would be a great idea, I think.
I definitely agree about selling doc:flex to Zak and Lal. Also try to sell them Yang's commlink if they're still interested.

All done.

It's a pity that we won't be able to beat the Hive to that southern base site. Perhaps we could set up a base 3 tiles to the NE, on that solar collector? Then, we can immediately follow up with a base on that fungal pass spot we were aiming for, since the boundaries will be redrawn.

Looking good to me. The transport can return next year to pick up the CP under production in SC4, so we should be able to get that CP there in four-five years.

Gaians at war with the Hive? Ouch! Perhaps it would be a good idea to contact the Gaians and form some sort of anti-Hive alliance (in return for some healthy compensation, of course).

Sounds good. We'll have to find the Gaians ourselves though, as the Hive doesn't want to sell their commlink.

We're going to be probe-raping Yang soon anyway. Of course, before we declare war on Yang

Were we planning to probe rape Yang? I thought we chose to pick on Zakharov as a softer target, and leave the Hivean giant alone for now?

BTW, what do the population numbers and powerchart look like now?

I made a little summary in the Covert Ops thread.


Btw, I first tested a bit of AI diplomacy (seeing of the Hive wanted to sell commlinks, if Zak/Lal wanted to trade techs etc) and then reloaded to do the official negotiations, without needlessly annoying the AIs with those other proposals. As a consequence the other factions will see a reload, but I explained it by saying winamp crashed.
(The other human factions don't need to know we have contacted Zak and Lal. If the mods know the true reason of the reload, that's sufficient I guess.)

[Zeiter]

Were we planning to probe rape Yang? I thought we chose to pick on Zakharov as a softer target, and leave the Hivean giant alone for now?

Ah yes, that's probably a better idea. From the covert ops report, it looks like Yang has a rather formidable force. I guess it would be better to let the Gaians handle that solo for the time being.

How many ECs do we have after all of the trades?

Edit: Wait, I just realized something - Yang now has all of the commlinks, so he'll probably call elections next year (since he has a good chance of winning the governorship). So, we'll most likely gain contact with all of the human factions next turn!!! I think we need to start formulating some concrete diplomacy strategies. Ideally, who do we want on our side? What are we willing to trade? Etc. Perhaps we should handle the diplomacy in a separate thread.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Zeiter
How many ECs do we have after all of the trades?

99 credits. And we're gaining 10 credits extra per year, besides of course a few extra from the stockpile energy bug from time to time.

Btw, I realized a way we could get even more credits.
We currently still have to pay 72 credits back to Yang for the loan he gave us some time ago. However in the diplomacy window there's the option to give back all the still required money right now. Now I was thinking that next year we could give him back all his money, and directly after ask for a new loan! AIs give half their credit reserves as loans, so this would mean we could get some 150 credits this way (half of his own 232 plus the 72 we gave back).

That's an extra 80 credits we'd gain! One downside is that instead of 1 credit each year, we'd probably have to pay back 2 or 3 credits every year, but unless we plan to stay at peace with the Hive for more than fourty years (40 times 2 extra credits = 80), that doesn't matter.

Edit: Wait, I just realized something - Yang now has all of the commlinks, so he'll probably call elections next year (since he has a good chance of winning the governorship). So, we'll most likely gain contact with all of the human factions next turn!!!

Wow, I hadn't realized that yet. I'm not sure this is actually in our advantage, as due to our Naval Flexibility we had a higher chance of meeting other factions on our own. But one thing is assured: it should make the game more interesting for everyone!

I think we need to start formulating some concrete diplomacy strategies.

An idea I had: First thing we could do if Yang actually calls the council is tell everyone that we gave Yang everyone's commlink with the specific purpose of bringing everyone in contact and making the game more interesting for everyone. It's not really true, but it could give Sparta a more positive image with the other factions.
Hopefully Kassiopeia and GeneralTacticus will join us for the diplomacy part if Yang calls the council.

Ideally, who do we want on our side? What are we willing to trade? Etc.

Regarding what we're willing to trade. Seeing that all AIs have AppPhys, NonlMath, DocMob and DocFlex anyway, we could try to sell all human factions those techs before they realize they can get them elsewhere. Especially with the Gaians, we could claim we're selling them as support for their battle against the Hive, and give us a more positive image.

Perhaps we should handle the diplomacy in a separate thread.

How about the Foreign Office?