Game Discussion, Turn 2101 - 2120

[Googlie]

2120 turn suggestions:

background

Sparta Command: Pop grows to 3 in 2122, colony pod comes off the production line in 2125 (unless rushed)

Santiago Citadel: Scout Rover gets commissioned next turn (2120). Population grows to 2 in 2125. I suggest we change production to a Colony Pod (11 turns)

Gythium Harbour: grows to size 2 in 7 years (2126). Currently producing an Invincible class foil (10 turns)

Sector Craterwest grows to size 2 in 7 years (2126). Currently producing a Colony Pod (11 turns)

2125/6 are crucial years as in 3 bases we grow to size 2 pop. 2 of them will be producing Colony Pods, so we need to start accummulating ec's to rush them. SCC Invincible will help, as we seem to get ec's more often from ocean podpops than from land (and the amount usually seems higher too)

We also need to have units in the vicinity to quell incipient drone riots

R-112 CRV and Chiron Knights should continue to explore and podpop as they head south. (Question: should R-112 CRV pop that pod to its southwest next turn?)

After SCC Invincible pops that pod in the ocean fungus, I suggest she heads south to map out the western coast of the largish peninsula that the 2 rovers are exploring.

When SC2's new rover is commissioned next turn (name needed) it should zip right up the Eurotas to Mount Olympus summit then head east from there to join up with the coastline and see what's hidden there.

Rolling Thunder should head east to SC2 (it might make it in 1 turn via the river), then move up to the Rio Grande for a free ride up to Mount Taygetus

Which of the 4 rovers should plan to return to the core bases by 2125/6 for temporary garrison duty? (Or should Santiago Citadel, with its Command center, continue to produce military units?)

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
After SCC Invincible pops that pod in the ocean fungus, I suggest she heads south to map out the western coast of the largish peninsula that the 2 rovers are exploring.

With 50 tries, these are the test results I get for a gun foil popping a unity pod in fungus:

Gun foil, Pod on fungus

native: 14
kelp: 11
sonar: 10
commlink: 4
100c: 4
materials: 3
75c: 2
50c: 1
25c: 1
total: 50

This means we have some 25% chance of getting an Isle of the Deep. As a) moving into fungus requires 3 MP, and b) when you pop an IoD you lose an extra movement point, our unit movement would end if we get an IoD. In other words, we wouldn't be able to run away or attack, and since the gun foil would be on fungus, the IoD would get a +50% combat bonus. A sure defeat. For that reason I'd like to propose we don't pop that unity pod right now, and instead continue exploring for pods on non-fungus tiles. When we have more ships, we could take the risk IMHO, but for now we have only one ship to explore, so it seems rather dangerous.

[Googlie]

Good point M

I didn't realize (or hadn't really thought it through) that the odds would be greater when the pod was in seafungus

I agree that it should avoid the pod then until it has a buddy that can "take care" of any bad results when podpopping

So I suggest that Invincible moves 1 west then turns south past the nut special to see if it can reconnect with the land the 2 rovers are on

It's getting pretty close to Yang as well (right now it's only 12 tiles from the Hive's co-ordinates (48:26) - albeit the Hive base is on the south side of what apears to be Mount Planet) And we can expect that Yang has planted a few more bases, so there might be one or two on the northside of that mountain - ie, only a couple of turns away for Invincible

Which brings us to the question:

"Under what circumstances do we trade Doctrine Flexibility?"

Of course, when we meet Yang, we'll see from the faction profile page what techs we have that he doesn't, so DocFlex might not be the only one he lacks (if indeed he hasn't yet researched it) Right now our galloping rovers and skimming foils are a distinct faction advantage vis-a-vis the ither teams (but we don't know about the AI) so my druthers would be to hold on to Doc Flex for as long as it gives us that advantage

G.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
With 50 tries, these are the test results I get .............................

and quite different from a landpop. I see there was no clone event in the 50 (so maybe that doesn't happen if it puts the cloned unit in fungus)

In SP games I usually just barrel right in and pop fungus pods - but then, od course, there's not so much hanging in the balance as we have, with bragging rights, etc etc.

I'll run a similar 50-iteration simulation and see how different (or similar) the results are

G.

[Googlie]

here are my 50 results:

Gun foil, Pod on fungus

native: 11
kelp: 11
sonar: 11
commlink: 2
100c: 1
materials: 3
tech: 1
75c: 6
50c: 3
25c: 1
total: 50

Not markedly different

With the 11 native pops, I let the sim run to the next turn with the following resluts:

IoD attacked 10 times, sped off the other

Of the attacks (10) survived 5 and lost the foil 5 times

So I agree with Maniac - let's wait for reinforcements before attacking a pod in the fungus

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
I didn't realize (or hadn't really thought it through) that the odds would be greater when the pod was in seafungus

There's of course lots of statistical noise and uncertainty with "only" 50 tries, but I was surprised to discover there most likely isn't a difference between the pod pop results you get in fungus or non-fungus sea tiles: both more or less 25% IoDs! It's just that IoDs from fungal pods are more dangerous as you can't attack or run away.
There does seem to be a difference when comparing with ocean trench pods. There the likelihood of getting an IoD approaches 40%!!

I agree that it should avoid the pod then until it has a buddy that can "take care" of any bad results when podpopping

Glad you agree.

So I suggest that Invincible moves 1 west then turns south past the nut special to see if it can reconnect with the land the 2 rovers are on

Sounds good.

and quite different from a landpop. I see there was no clone event in the 50 9so maybe that doesn't happen if it puts the cloned unit in fungus

Now I look again at the test results, in total 150 tries with gun foils, none of them was a clone! Though of course that may simply be because it is a rare pop result, and who knows I could get it after all if I'd test further.

I'll run a similar 50-iteration simulation and see how different (or similar) the results are

Sounds good. In case you're interested, here are the full results from my tests until now. (Yeah, I had too much time to waste a little while ago )

---

SMAX
Scenario editor activated
MY 2101
pods outside base radius

untested variables:
inside/outside base radius
pods next to coast (for unity foils)
unity pods located on river
Xenoempathy Dome
...

first five units don't start on fungus tile; five last do. Just in case it would make a difference.

Unity rover, Pod not on fungus

~50% of resource pods double goodies

resource: 22
native: 10
monolith: 5
artifact: 5
materials: 3
75c: 1
50c: 1
25c: 1
clone: 1
mine: 1
50

double goodies:
/native: 3
/materials: 2
/75c: 2
/50c: 1
/forest: 1
/river: 1
11

Unity rover, Pod on fungus

monolith: 12
native: 10
bloom: 6
river: 4
artifact: 3
forest: 3
25c: 3
75c: 2
materials: 2
50c: 1
farm: 1
tech: 1
mine: 1
commlink: 1
50

Unity foil, Pod on shelf

native: 13
kelp: 10
materials: 7
artifact: 6
sonar: 6
clone: 2
25c: 2
50c: 1
100c: 1
foil: 1
tech: 1
50


Unity foil, Pod on fungus

native: 12
materials: 9
kelp: 8
sonar: 5
artifact: 5
100c: 3
75c: 2
25c: 2
tech: 2
50c: 1
commlink: 1
50


Unity foil, Pod in trench

native: 20
artifact: 7
sonar: 6
materials: 5
75c: 4
50c: 3
commlink: 2
foil: 2
tech: 1
50

Gun foil, Pod in trench

native: 19
sonar: 15
materials: 7
25c: 3
100c: 2
75c: 2
50c: 1
commlink: 1
50


Gun foil, Pod on shelf

native: 11
kelp: 10
sonar: 9
materials: 6
50c: 5
100c: 3
75c: 2
25c: 2
commlink: 1
tech: 1
50

Gun foil, Pod on fungus

native: 14
kelp: 11
sonar: 10
commlink: 4
100c: 4
materials: 3
75c: 2
50c: 1
25c: 1
50

---

In case you want to do some tests yourself, one tip:
If the most nearby base had a materials pod, it's impossible to get a second materials pod for that base when popping other nearby pods. So to prevent contaminating test results, change base production to something else after a materials pod: this will make all the bonus minerals disappear, and a new materials pod is possible.

Attached is the save I used for the tests.

[ChairmanSlick]

fascinating, it seems you guys have this game down to a science, literally!

I agree that popping the sea pod is too risky... afterall there are plenty more pods in the sea. =)

In terms of trading flexibility i think that we have no real great need for technology. Of course it would be nice if we could get Industrial Automation, or gene splicing, but it is not imperitive, and i think steering our own tech course for the time being is more important. This can in turn be aided by a lower tech cost, having not traded for some tech we do not desperately need. Furthermore, i think that the next tech we'll research is planetary networks (probes), so when we do come across another faction (particularly human), then we can steal like a burgular in the night... over and over.

One thing is obvious, we are the only team that will be building anything resembling an army b4 2145; ( in terms of human factions), they will be building an army of formers/crawlers i'm guessing and trying to out tech each other. If we pick our friends wisely, due to the fact that the other humans will be reluctant to trade with each other, we will further our tech capabilities, and thus in looking to the future, i think that we might not need to trade as desperately as we think.


One last thing, i know its early days, but are you guys thinking of a Secret Project? I'm sure we'll be able to grab one if we put our efforts towards it. (depending on the fact we can snatch Ind.Auto -- Or research it early enough...) Perhaps PlanetaryTransitSytem would be a good one? what are your thoughts??

[Googlie]

I had posted this a few days ago in the "tech beeline" thread:

Originally posted by Googlie
And at some point we should prioritize the SP's we want (much like the Hive-Drones did in the last game) and tech-stream towards them

eg, is the Maritime COntrol Center a must for us? (I'd say. "yes", and it's interesting that the attendant quote for that SP is from Santiago)

Do we care about any of the others?

I'd say that realistically, much as we'd love to have them, the Human Genome Project and the Virtual World are out of our reach (on account of how long it will take us to get the tech, then get Ind Auto, then build the SP - unless our superior movement nets us some AA's to cash in - let's hope the first pop of our gunfoil is a Unity trannie!!)

I sense that we're ambivalent re the Weather Paradigm and the Merchant Exchange (nice to have, but we don't care if others get them)

I'd put the Planetary Transit Syatem and the Planetary Energy Grid somewhere between these first 2 categories - ie, not a "must have" but stronger than a "nice-to-have"

Which leaves 2 "militaristic" SP's - the Citizens' Defence Force and the Maritime Control Center. I'd consider us somewhat of a failure if we didn't get these 2 SP's (CDF plus either HEC's plasma armor or Field Modulation's 3-res armor would make us pretty untouchable until Chaos weapons, and I don't think we should ever let another faction gain naval movement points on us (it was huge for the CyCon in that last game)

Thoughts?

G.

Still my opinion, even if over in the other thread it spawned some discussion re famrs+ condensors for a very early popboom (via the Weather Paradigm)

If we had a surfeit of AA's to cash in (or podpopped a whole bunch of ec's) then I'd say snag the WP asap, as the other 2 on my own "must-have" list are a little ways away (further up the tech tree)

But we need formers and colony pods right now before we need to tie up a base's production with an SP

[Zeiter]

Of course, the military ones wouldn't be a bad idea (CN, CDF, MCC). I also think getting extra boreholes and condensers from the WP would help offset our industry penalty. And if we could somehow manage an early popboom with the WP, it would greatly conpensate for our early lack of crawlers.

It would be a real tragedy to lose our foil already. I agree that we should not pop the pod in the fungus (or probably any pods in fungus) right now, until we have a backup foil, or until our foils have done plenty to pay themselves back, and they become a little more expendable.

As we'll undoubtedly need a steady stream of garrison units for drone control for other cities, we could probably just leave Santiago Citidel on scout rover production indefinitely. Each drone that a unit built in SC2 quells is like adding a population point of production power. It would be just as if be had SC2 found a new base with a CP. But having it build garrisons is even better because the rovers will be commando, they are only 2 rows (instead of 3 for a CP), they are more flexible than a stationary base, and later on, when we don't need them for drone control duty, we can upgrade them with impact weapons and send them to Yang.

I'm against having R-112 CRV popping that pod to the W right now. From what I can see on the screenshot, it looks like it is on a rocky tile, which would stop the rover's movement, and if a MW, would get us another damaged rover that would need time to repair, further slowing our exploration efforts. So, I say move R-112 CRV S next turn.

[Googlie]

Correct. It is a rocky tile.

How about using R-112 to scout around it while moving Chiron Knights up the Rojo then across so that it (CK) can pop the pod with R-112 on standby if a mindworm pops out.

I know that we are "healing" CK right now, but if that pod should eventually produce a monolith we'll be kicking ourselves for not being bolder these next couple of turns and geting an instaheal for CK

(Plus, this way it'll get out of the fungus-river tiles that allow mindworms to move fast to their prey)

I agree that it's better for Citadel to continue to churn out rovers and send them to garrison new bases rather than having the new bases use that valuable first row on an inferior product (a rover with 2 less morale than SC2's ones), when a former would be of more value in the mid-term (followed by another colony pod)

[Zeiter]

Good idea with the R-112 CRV and Chiron Knights tag-team pod popping. I definitely agree with that plan.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
When SC2's new rover is commissioned next turn (name needed) it should zip right up the Eurotas to Mount Olympus summit then head east from there to join up with the coastline and see what's hidden there.

I've played a bit ahead with the turn simulator, and I noticed we'll have enough credits to hurry SC1 CP production the turn after the base grows to size 2. This means we would only need a garrison unit for one turn. Therefore I was thinking, how about using the new SC2 rover for that job?

Next turn 2120 it could move to the monolith north of SC1 to get a morale boost. MY 2121 it could move into SC1 and garrison. Then MY 2122 SC1 will have grown to size 2 and we can hurry the CP. This means the rover can already move on to explore.

As a result we could let the Ogre garrison one of the three other bases when they grow to size 2 more or less simultaneously.

Problem is, if we also send Rolling Thunder out to explore, that still leaves two bases without garrison.

It has been suggested to let SC2 produce another scout rover. Problem is such a unit would only be ready in 8 turns, while all three bases grow faster. A simple scout patrol would get ready in time though, in 4 turns. Would producing one of those instead be all right?

However even if we'd get an extra garrison in time, that still only covers two out of three. Therefore I was thinking... What would everyone think about nervestapling one base if necessary? We haven't got any commerce income yet, and probably won't have any yet in the next ten years, so we can afford one atrocity this early in the game. This means the only problem would be explaining roleplay-wise. But I'm sure something could be invented. For example a rebellion of the conservative militarists who oppose the new Federation, reducing the power of the established military elite, or so. And the 'good guys' crushing the rebellion and nervestapling its leaders (and thus not the whole base population).

[Zeiter]

Was nervestapling commonly accepted by the human factions in the last ACDG? Would other factions be alerted to our nerve stapling, or could be cover it up somehow? I know the AI factions would know about it, but what about the humans? Do they get a pop up message notifying them of it?

Also, what bases would specifically need to be nervestapled? If we could manage it, I would like to limit any stapling to just 1 base. I think you would be correct in that we won't be receiving any commerce in 10 years, but in 20 years...I'm not so sure.

Overall, I'm open to the idea. And I agree about having the new rover from SC2 go to SC1 for drone duty (after the monolith upgrade). Then, it can be in the area to help the new CP if any worms come crawling out of that fungus to the north. So then, how many turns is SC2 from size 2? Do we want to use the Ogre to police there?

[Kassiopeia]

Don't worry about the roleplaying aspect. That's why we have a minister of information to spin it properly. Do what you must, the Phalanx will take care of the rest. Never mind the fact that it might spice things up considerably: it would bring a whole lot of flavour to RP. The Gaians and Data Angels would abhor it, but with our brawn they shouldn't be setting up a crusade any time soon.

[Googlie]

I'd hold nervestapling as a last resort, and still move the Ogre to SC1, and explore north with just the 1 new rover. The Ogre can be moved across to SC2 and down to Harbor after the Command's CP is rushed, and I'd support commissioning a Scout Patrol next at SC2.

We don't know how much of that unexplored land Northeast might have east-flowing rivers coursing down from Mount Taygetus and Olympus that would let the rover complete its assignment and return in the space of 6 turns (by 2125)

As I pointed out in the earlier post, the new SC2 rover could be at Olympus' summit in 1 turn (and maybe that's all that's needed by way of units to explore there given that Rolling Thunder needs 2 turns to get itself on the Rio Grande to head north, so perhaps it should hang around the crater to provide some general security and drone control there.

So a workable solution would be:

2120

• Continue moving the Ogre to SC1 (2 river tiles, then see if it can use the remaining 1/3rd to get to the tile adjacent to SC1
• move Rolling Thunder 2 tiles west on to the arm of the Eurotas River
• Send the newly commissioned scout rover upriver (bypassing the monolith) to the tile(s) east of the Eurotas source
• start an infantry scout in SC2

2121
If the Ogre was unable to get to 1 tile NW of SC1, then use the nervestaple option on Sparta Command so that it can grow to size 2 and we can rush the colony pod next turn. Return the Ogre to Citadel

(As we grow, we do need to assign responsibilities for Exploration, Defence, etc etc)