Announcement

**Voltaire** · January 14, 2004, 02:12

Enigma has gone back to the lab to work on his 'Free Spirits' political system

Brings back so many fond memories of Nietzsche.

**Snowflake** · January 14, 2004, 03:51

Dear Enigma, well I appreciate your motivated spirit in making everything better, I beg you to try improve your skills in working with the team. I'm not going to run for the Chairman but I will try to advocate that in any constitution such clause should be included:
Each citizen has the right to express his own opinion within the team. However, he should not work against the teams decision outside of the team.
An example would be if we decide to permpact with Drones, people can very well express their opinions about breaking the pact inside the team but before the team changes its stance please refrain from intentional actions that moves toward that direction.

Also, I have to say that no matter what system we have, if everybody can work together, the things gets done easier. I really hope I don't need to spend 90% of my time again simply trying to pull everybody together. If you really want to see this team win as a democratic game team, please try your hardest to work with people. I know with your intelligent level, you can do it if you really try.

I hope your energy will make this team better. Your previous conduct has not exactly served this purpose. I hate to say this but if you prove that you cannot work within the team, I will have to ask for a revote on turn players. I hope the team can depend on your intelligence, not be disrupted because of it.

**Octavian X** · January 17, 2004, 01:39

That said, I'm going to do something very uncreative and introduce, as a proposal, a system of government that has been very sucessful in the past, more specifically for the Apolyton team of the intersite team democracy game.

The Consuls
1. Three Citizens shall be elected as Consuls.
  1. Initial elections will occur upon ratification of this Constitution.
  2. There will be an opportunity to nominate the Consuls, and then an election, where the 3 people with the most manual ballots are chosen as Consuls.
  3. Each month, one of the three Consul positions shall come up for election.
  4. Consul positions which have never undergone scheduled elections shall undergo scheduled elections once per month in order of the tenure of the position's occupant until all Consul positions have undergone scheduled elections.
  5. Once all Consul positions have undergone scheduled elections, the Consul position up for election each month shall be the one which has gone 3 months since its last scheduled election.
  6. Any citizen who is not holding another Consul position may become a candidate.
  7. Candidates for scheduled Consular elections must announce their candidacy by the 4th day of the month.
  8. Scheduled Consular elections will be held for 72 hours starting on the 7th of the month.
  9. If a single candidate obtains a majority of votes in the first vote, he will be the new Consul.
  10. If no candidate achieves a majority of the votes, then a second vote will immediatley be held for 48 hours between the two leading candidates of the first vote. If a tie on the first vote prevents only two candidates from being chosen for the second vote, then any ties will be broken by a vote of the the other Consuls and the three ministers until there are only two leading candidates available for the second vote.
  11. If there is a tie vote and only two candidates have received votes, the current holder of the Consul office will break the tie.
  12. If a Change of Command (CoC) is successfully exercised against a sitting Consul, the citizen who becomes Consul will fill that Consul position until the next scheduled election for the position rather than receiving his own 3-month term from the date of the CoC.
2. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
3. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
4. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
5. The Consuls have the power to rule on senatorial disputes in a manner they see fit.
6. Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.
7. The Consuls appoint Ministers.
8. A Consul may appoint a replacement Consul for himself for up to a two week period of time so that vacations and other such short term absences won't interupt the game. Before the absence the Consul shall start a thread naming a replacement and the replacement shall accept before it is considered official. Upon returning from the absence, the Consul needs only to post that he has returned and state that he is relieving the replacement of his duties in order to reclaim the Consulship. The replacement Consul has all powers and responsibilities of a regular Consul except that he may not call a CoC on himself nor may any other team member call a CoC on the replacement.
Minister of Defense
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Defense.
2. The Minister of Defense advises on the movement and engagement of combat and scouting units.
3. The Minister of Defense advises on the upgrading of units.
Minister of the Interior
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of the Interior.
2. The Minister of the Interior advises on the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
3. The Minister of the Interior advises on the Science and Luxury Sliders, the treasury, and the direction of science research.
4. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city citizens.
5. The Minister of the Interior may draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions.
6. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city build queues, including the rushing of projects.
7. The Minister of the Interior may create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.
Minister of Foreign Affairs
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Foreign Affairs.
2. The Minister of Foreign Affairs gives lead to diplomatic affairs with other nations. He may appoint ambassadors to assist him.
3. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the establishment of Embassies.
4. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on Espionage affairs.
5. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the engagements of Treaties with other nations.
Minister of Information
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Information.
2. The Minister of Information is responsible for the timely availability of game-related information to the People.
Senatorial Procedure
1. All members of the team who are not Consuls are Senators.
2. The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow.
  1. A Bill must be proposed by a Senator, and clearly state the purpose in the first post, and have the following options for a poll: yea or nay.
  2. The Bill must be passed by a simple majority, 50% plus 1, to become a law.
  3. All bills must be open for at least 48 hours.
3. The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command (CoC).
  1. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal on an elected official.
  2. The Senator must state the elected official he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'.
  3. During 48 hours after the initial proposal, any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Senator himself may or may not apply.
  4. After the first 48 hours, but within 72 hours, the Senator must organize a vote - this is called the 'replacement proposal'. If this vote is not organized within this time, the CoC is nulled.
  5. The replacement proposal vote must be open for 72 hours.
  6. The replacement proposal vote must include all candidates, plus the person who was the subject of the initial proposal, unless this person indicates otherwise.
  7. The CoC vote shall be done with a preferential ballot. The person with the highest outcome wins the election.
  8. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.
  9. Any elected official may not be the subject of a CoC for five turns after his election.

**Snowflake** · January 17, 2004, 04:08

Like the consul idea. Hope there will not be a lot of laws.

**Voltaire** · January 17, 2004, 04:32

I have little objection to the proposed draft, except might I suggest we also add a Tribune of the Plebs that would have veto power over Senatorial decisions, as well as to draft laws for approval by the Senate? This would temper the power of the Senate.

**Jamski** · January 17, 2004, 09:30

I like it. And I like the Tribune too.

-Jam

**Enigma_Nova** · January 17, 2004, 10:10

"All members of the team who are not Consuls are Senators."

So the pleb tribune -is- the senate.
I shall now present you all with your medals of ignorance.
Enigma hands you both a shiny medal

**Enigma_Nova** · January 17, 2004, 10:28

Okay... learning new HTML tags every day.

The Consuls
1. Three Citizens shall be elected as Consuls.
  
  The problem I see here is a static, unfixed, changing number. 3. It should be in our interests to raise and lower this number. Consuls are turn players, law enactors, and by the looks of things, moderators. I support a multiskilled position.
  1. Initial elections will occur upon ratification of this Constitution.
  2. There will be an opportunity to nominate the Consuls, and then an election, where the 3 people with the most manual ballots are chosen as Consuls.
  3. Each month, one of the three Consul positions shall come up for election.
    
    Again I don't like this. This encourages lethargy on two tiers:
    1. Your consul may work less hard on the premise that his job will be under threat
    2. Your people may pay less attention to what the consuls are doing on account of everything cleared up each month.
    The easiest way to solve this is that there must be grounds for an election, and dare I say, debate.
    People must argue why a current person is to be replaced and likewise argue why the person is not to be replaced.
  4. Consul positions which have never undergone scheduled elections shall undergo scheduled elections once per month in order of the tenure of the position's occupant until all Consul positions have undergone scheduled elections.
  5. Once all Consul positions have undergone scheduled elections, the Consul position up for election each month shall be the one which has gone 3 months since its last scheduled election.
  6. Any citizen who is not holding another Consul position may become a candidate.
  7. Candidates for scheduled Consular elections must announce their candidacy by the 4th day of the month.
  8. Scheduled Consular elections will be held for 72 hours starting on the 7th of the month.
    
    You know... it would be better if we do this biweekly instead of monthly (and make the time adaptive). More change == greater dynamic element. To win, we must be flexible, readily adaptable, and easily learning. Perhaps moreso than most people are comfortable with.
    Even a turn-ly election would work well. If nothing else, it gets the postcounts up, and that's always a bonus.
  9. If a single candidate obtains a majority of votes in the first vote, he will be the new Consul.
  10. If no candidate achieves a majority of the votes, then a second vote will immediatley be held for 48 hours between the two leading candidates of the first vote. If a tie on the first vote prevents only two candidates from being chosen for the second vote, then any ties will be broken by a vote of the the other Consuls and the three ministers until there are only two leading candidates available for the second vote.
  11. If there is a tie vote and only two candidates have received votes, the current holder of the Consul office will break the tie.
  12. If a Change of Command (CoC) is successfully exercised against a sitting Consul, the citizen who becomes Consul will fill that Consul position until the next scheduled election for the position rather than receiving his own 3-month term from the date of the CoC.
2. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
3. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
  
  Of course these Consuls can opt to alter the law by simple vote... do not presume things are set in stone.
4. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
5. The Consuls have the power to rule on senatorial disputes in a manner they see fit.
6. Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.
7. The Consuls appoint Ministers.
  
  They should also be able to invent their own ministerial positions. (This ties in with the option to increase or reduce the number of consuls)
8. A Consul may appoint a replacement Consul for himself for up to a two week period of time so that vacations and other such short term absences won't interupt the game. Before the absence the Consul shall start a thread naming a replacement and the replacement shall accept before it is considered official. Upon returning from the absence, the Consul needs only to post that he has returned and state that he is relieving the replacement of his duties in order to reclaim the Consulship. The replacement Consul has all powers and responsibilities of a regular Consul except that he may not call a CoC on himself nor may any other team member call a CoC on the replacement.
Minister of Defense
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Defense.
2. The Minister of Defense advises on the movement and engagement of combat and scouting units.
3. The Minister of Defense advises on the upgrading of units.
Minister of the Interior
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of the Interior.
2. The Minister of the Interior advises on the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
3. The Minister of the Interior advises on the Science and Luxury Sliders, the treasury, and the direction of science research.
4. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city citizens.
5. The Minister of the Interior may draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions.
6. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city build queues, including the rushing of projects.
7. The Minister of the Interior may create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.
Minister of Foreign Affairs
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Foreign Affairs.
2. The Minister of Foreign Affairs gives lead to diplomatic affairs with other nations. He may appoint ambassadors to assist him.
3. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the establishment of Embassies.
4. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on Espionage affairs.
5. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the engagements of Treaties with other nations.
That's nice but all 3 positions tie in together...
And NOTE WELL that these should -NOT- be unitous positions. Every position should have a double-checker, and once again the number of folk in such a position could be increased or decreased by vote.
I would move for a person being able to hold all 3 positions. If two people can do this, then it will be a decently effective team.
Minister of Information
1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Information.
2. The Minister of Information is responsible for the timely availability of game-related information to the People.
Senatorial Procedure
1. All members of the team who are not Consuls are Senators.
2. The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow.
  1. A Bill must be proposed by a Senator, and clearly state the purpose in the first post, and have the following options for a poll: yea or nay.
  2. The Bill must be passed by a simple majority, 50% plus 1, to become a law.
  3. All bills must be open for at least 48 hours.
3. The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command (CoC).
  1. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal on an elected official.
  2. The Senator must state the elected official he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'.
  3. During 48 hours after the initial proposal, any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Senator himself may or may not apply.
    
    Change that to the couper MAY apply.
  4. After the first 48 hours, but within 72 hours, the Senator must organize a vote - this is called the 'replacement proposal'. If this vote is not organized within this time, the CoC is nulled.
  5. The replacement proposal vote must be open for 72 hours.
  6. The replacement proposal vote must include all candidates, plus the person who was the subject of the initial proposal, unless this person indicates otherwise.
  7. The CoC vote shall be done with a preferential ballot. The person with the highest outcome wins the election.
  8. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.
  9. Any elected official may not be the subject of a CoC for five turns after his election.

**Voltaire** · January 17, 2004, 23:27

The problem I see here is a static, unfixed, changing number. 3. It should be in our interests to raise and lower this number. Consuls are turn players, law enactors, and by the looks of things, moderators. I support a multiskilled position.

I suggest making the number of Councils 2, in keeping with collegiality, seeing as we are low on members as it stands this would better suite out situation. Though the point Enigma raises does have merit, hence I suggest that the Senate be able to appoint an Interrex to serve in either the absence of the Councils, if they are found incapable of performing their duties, or with the Councils if found that assistance it needed. This allows for both stability and flexibility.

Again I don't like this. This encourages lethargy on two tiers:
1. Your consul may work less hard on the premise that his job will be under threat
2. Your people may pay less attention to what the consuls are doing on account of everything cleared up each month.
The easiest way to solve this is that there must be grounds for an election, and dare I say, debate.
People must argue why a current person is to be replaced and likewise argue why the person is not to be replaced.

Here too a valid points seems made, though I would prefer a simpler solution, if the collegiality is adopted then let both councils stand for re-election at the end of their given term. Also, I would prefer it if they did not stand unopposed hence candidates each month should stand against the Councils in order to keep them on guard and to facilitate debate on their actions during their term in office.

You know... it would be better if we do this biweekly instead of monthly (and make the time adaptive). More change == greater dynamic element. To win, we must be flexible, readily adaptable, and easily learning. Perhaps moreso than most people are comfortable with.
Even a turn-ly election would work well. If nothing else, it gets the postcounts up, and that's always a bonus.

I do not see the necessity of this, and a monthly term would allow the Councils time enough to do their jobs and effect change. Besides, enough activity will be generated by the other bodies of government, such as the Senate, which will have the power to issue decrees.

Of course these Consuls can opt to alter the law by simple vote... do not presume things are set in stone.

Indeed, Senatorial decrees should not be able to affect the powers of a Council while in office, if they so wish the Council can not abide by Senatorial decrees of laws. The position of the Tribute of the Plebes would serve to keep the government in check, though the Senate is not bound by the will of the Councils, and the Councils not by the decrees of the Senate, let all stand before the veto of the Tribune.

Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.

The Consuls appoint Ministers.

They should also be able to invent their own ministerial positions. (This ties in with the option to increase or reduce the number of consuls)

I take issue with all this. I propose that that the powers of the Councils in office be uncontested for the duration of their term. Furthermore it might be more in lines of the new democracy created to have all magistrates elected,, so if a Council wanted to have a particular team of magistrates in their term in office they would have to organize a campaign and try to get their magistrates elected.

But I would give the power to the Councils to define the jobs of the Magistrates elected, hence I see no reason for someone to stand for a particular office, rather they get elected as a whole and then get appointed to an office. The Councils would be free to define the parameters of the office.

Also I would like to see the Councils represent the State aboard, the Magistrates should solely deal with internal affairs.

Lastly, it might be prudent to see an elected judiciary as well; the position of Praetors in the judiciary should be akin to the Councils in administration, in that they are secure in their term of office, but only deal with judicial matters. Though they too, of course, would be subject to the veto of the Tribune of the Plebs.

**Enigma_Nova** · January 18, 2004, 06:09

Voltaire:
NOTE 1: Consuls, not Councils.
NOTE 2: If you're not a Consul, you're a Senator.
Why would you need a Plebian Throng to regulate them?
I have a better idea:
How about, Every member is a Senator, and some Senators are Consuls.
Then, by virtue of everyone being part of the group, you have your plebian association (just under a different name).

Originally posted by Voltaire
I suggest making the number of Councils 2, in keeping with collegiality, seeing as we are low on members as it stands this would better suite out situation.

2 it is, but if there is a potentially powerful 3rd member we should also let him or her in.
Not to actually suggest we'll have 20% of our active populous participating in the leadership, of course. It's just something to think about.

I suggest that the Senate be able to appoint an Interrex to serve in either the absence of the Councils, if they are found incapable of performing their duties, or with the Councils if found that assistance it needed. This allows for both stability and flexibility.

Already covered.
1. A consul can appoint a temporary replacement
2. A consul can be removed by a vote of no confidence, at which point a new consul can be appointed.
3. A consul can appoint ministers

Here too a valid points seems made, though I would prefer a simpler solution, if the collegiality is adopted then let both councils stand for re-election at the end of their given term.

I like it. A 4-week term seems okay to me, but note that WE MUST KEEP THE VOTES OF NO CONFIDENCE.
The ability of the people to remove problems must be maintained! If a consul is a problem we must be able to remove him (or her).

Also, I would prefer it if they did not stand unopposed hence candidates each month should stand against the Councils in order to keep them on guard and to facilitate debate on their actions during their term in office.

1. A person must nominate themselves to oppose the consul.
2. A person must have shown an ability and desire to use the power of the consul position to become a consul.
Those ammendments seem okay to me.
3. In the event that a consul is ineffective and no person shows the willingness or ability to be a consul then the number of consuls is reduced by 1.
4. If the number of consuls is 0, the government is considered dissolved.
That's your emergency situation covered.

I do not see the necessity of this, and a monthly term would allow the Councils time enough to do their jobs and effect change. Besides, enough activity will be generated by the other bodies of government, such as the Senate, which will have the power to issue decrees.

That's true, but you don't have to be a Consul to enact change.
Any senator (which is ANY HIVE MEMBER if you're not following along) can propose anything, at any time.
Of course only the Consuls can moderate the forum or play the turn with the advice, but you don't have to have power to show that you would be effective in using it.

Indeed, Senatorial decrees should not be able to affect the powers of a Council while in office,

I disagree. Power to the Senate, people should be able to change the system and update the system in any and all circumstances.
If this means increasing or decreasing the powers of a consul so be it - it is better to be able to fix things when they're first sighted as problems, fresh in our minds, than to wait half a month then try to enact change when everyone's forgotten about what they're changing.

if they so wish the Council can not abide by Senatorial decrees of laws.

*cough* Under the presumption that our people are able to make intelligent decisions, no law need be ignored.
And again, power to the hiverian people (Which is The Senate, in case you're not following along).
We will need a disaster contingency plan in case our people turn out to be nitwits.
1. Let it be possible that a player can be put 'on trial' for such things as being a traitor, being a nitwit, being destructive.
In any case, it must be proven that such a person is a detriment to The Hive. A majority vote of 66% is needed to fire such a person from The Human Hive.
2. If it is general opinion that over 33% of The Hive are holding a 'union' (group of nitwits that don't want to lose the power they don't deserve) then an emergency contingency system is to be put into place as follows:

a. All players are immediately on trial, and must state their reasons for continued presence in The Human Hive.
b. Each player is allowed to vote for ONE person they want to stay in, and ONE person they want to throw out. A player's final score is (#positive votes - #negative votes).
A player may abstain from either vote.
c. Only players with positive scores are allowed to continue playing.
d. This process will repeat until no further players are being thrown out.
e. The surviving players now elect who arrives in The Hive by a simple majoirty (>50%), and play resumes.

We need a disaster contingency plan in case The Hive is shown to be idiotic and lazy - as was revealed as the root of our previous problems.
I call the above procedure a 'universal vote of no confidence'. Nifty, eh?

The position of the Tribute of the Plebes would serve to keep the government in check, though the Senate is not bound by the will of the Councils, and the Councils not by the decrees of the Senate, let all stand before the veto of the Tribune.

You're renaming Senate to Tribune.
Stop that. The old word works fine.

I take issue with all this. I propose that that the powers of the Councils in office be uncontested for the duration of their term.

Players must reserve the right to change what is at err, and solve problems as they appear, not later when people forget about it.
Coup system must remain in effect.
(Adding the premise that the couper himself may take the position)

Furthermore it might be more in lines of the new democracy created to have all magistrates elected,, so if a Council wanted to have a particular team of magistrates in their term in office they would have to organize a campaign and try to get their magistrates elected.

A senatorial poll to create a new position...
Then a senatorial poll to see who fills it.
I like it. It's in.
Of course there's the possibility that someone is an idiot, and so we'll need a disaster contingency plan if they keep proposing things that will muck up the system.

Also I would like to see the Councils represent the State aboard, the Magistrates should solely deal with internal affairs.

Ministers should be able to be appointed to any position.
I suggest we remove those 3 ministerial positions mentioned in the original constitution and vote them in as soon as the new constitution comes up.
Chances are their positions will landslide in, but it gives people a chance to fix any forseeable problems before

Lastly, it might be prudent to see an elected judiciary as well;

They're called The Senate. Everyone's a member.
If you're looking for an elite judiciary, one of the most competant, I suggest culling The Hive until all members are capable of making decisions.

I like my system more: Everyone gets a say, no being swamped with legal mumbo jumbo, and best of all it gives us an excuse to remove our 'lame legs' and remove our 'unions'.

I still need a disaster contingency plan in case a stupid or lazy or just plain stubborn majority holds up elections and polls.
('cuz you can't vote em out, now can you?)
The Elimination by Fire system proposed above will remove all infighting in perhaps the most drastic way, and (at the expense of our position atop the turn chart) show the insurgents the error of their ways.

**Octavian X** · January 22, 2004, 02:25

I agree with the points that Enigma makes. Let me remind everyone that the reason previous governments failed is that they were overly complex. The reason the old shadow ministry worked, and the reason why the original three consul system worked, was because they were simplistic - no unneccessary bodies, regulations, etc. For the consul system, people were expected to abide by the spirit of the law, and they did so.

**Frankychan** · January 22, 2004, 03:03

......well said, Comrade Enigma. (forgot to recheck this thread).

I personally believe in the old system. It worked extremely well in the past, and i believe it will work until the Hive rules Planet under its iron fist.

I guess it's no surprise that I am a loyalist towards the Hiverian government....

but oh well.

Originally posted by Comrade HongHu

Also, I have to say that no matter what system we have, if everybody can work together, the things gets done easier. I really hope I don't need to spend 90% of my time again simply trying to pull everybody together. If you really want to see this team win as a democratic game team, please try your hardest to work with people. I know with your intelligent level, you can do it if you really try.

I hope your energy will make this team better. Your previous conduct has not exactly served this purpose. I hate to say this but if you prove that you cannot work within the team, I will have to ask for a revote on turn players. I hope the team can depend on your intelligence, not be disrupted because of it.

I agree 100%. Unity of the Hive members should be our #1 goal.

As for the new form of government...I think it is ok....but I like the government we have now. IMHO, it is efficient and it's doing its intended job (making the Hive #1).

**Voltaire** · January 22, 2004, 22:35

Since I have been vested with the power to implement the new Constitution, whatever form it may take, there will be a constitution put back into place before my term is up. First and foremost continue to give ideas in this thread, since they will all be considered when writing the constitution. Also to make it democratic and fair it would be good if everyone who wants to change the government structure formulate a formal constitution and we can put them all up to a vote, the one the people like the most will be implemented, this will allow everyone to have their voice heard.

-Chairman Voltaire

**Snowflake** · January 23, 2004, 11:37

I suggest that the operational part of the consititution should be simple and effective. We have had huge burocratic that doesn't do much. We really need reforms.

**Enigma_Nova** · January 23, 2004, 12:47

Copying the Octavian X proposal.
Simplifying it a bit, and adding more ability to change.

I still am not sure about a disaster contingency plan though!

Announcement

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