Drone Negotiations

[Snowflake]

I remember Googlie said that they already have partial portion of our map. Maybe it is justified to ask for a map exchange, especially considering our good guesture in giving them partial map before hand. Plus I thought that pact brothers always have each others maps.

[Haon]

Thats why I dont want a pact, if we get that only for a map, then when we do eventually go to war and break the pact is broken, it will make us look "dishonourable" and may work against us. Thats the main reaons I dont want a pact to commit to, nat least not this early, though argurably, any pacts this early will be broiken anyway.

[Snowflake]

Well they did specify a 50 turns time line for the pact ... that means it is breakable without having to be dishonorable. Is that right?

[Haon]

I guess so, but what happens when we want to do a surprise attack, or if we are in a perfect position to ambush, or if we find ourselves in a situation where we are being exploited and war becomes necessary? If we can get the other factions to support us, or if we keep the war "secret" thats fine, but I doubt we can do that, if we commit to 50 years, and then attack earlier, and then the Drones spread bad words about us to the other factions that they have contact with.

Though the Drones will bad mouth us if we attack them anyway, so I guess it does not really matter, but I dont want to feel that we have to "commit" to peace.

[Kody]

They specifically put in a line in the pact document that states that when someone breaks the pact the other faction will publish the pact and how it was broken. It sounds like the drones know there are a few blood thirsty war mongers in the Hive, if they don't believe the whole faction is that way.

Kody

[Kody]

Email

Kody,

Your rewording for 1.j is fine with us.

The way that territory is defined by the game make any consideration of "
...Also according to your wording the Hive can claim your land resources
with
a coastal base. While you cannot claim our land resources with your
coastal base." moot. Unless our land masses should become connected, a
coastal base on one side of the channel (or in later situations, on one side
of any body of water) will not be able to claim or to work land tiles on the
other side. If there is or comes to be a land connection, the game will
determine the borders and the workability of any potentially disputed
square, no matter how we might agree otherwise. The only recourse in that
circumstance would be to negotiate cross crawling of FOPs from those
squares.

There is no issue here, I think, neither is there likely to be one where
this language might apply.

On other matters, Buster has created an Embassy forum for Hivers at CGN. So
far, only you have access to it. (non-drone access. I should say) Merely
inform Buster of any other persons desiring access and the CGN username of
that person so that he can enable them to view and to post there. His
instructions in that forum are likely more clear than this effort of mine to
relate them.

We will certainly provide IE next turn. We were awaiting agreement on the
joint research program for IA before sending it.

If you like, I am authorized to offer an exchange of maps.

Regards,

Mongoose

PS. You note that I have resumed spelling your name correctly...I must have
been having extended brain cramping earlier in the week. Getting old is a
*****.

[Voltaire]

If someone could post a link to the CGN forums, I will join.

Also, no trading maps just yet.

[Kody]

Updated

Hive - Drones Pact agreement

Preface: This document provides the overal framework for a Hive - Drones
pact. While it does not extend to an agreement to fully work together for
a shared victory and while towards the end of the game a situation where
a final winner among the two involved parties need to be found could
result, it is created on the assumption that both involved parties are in
the near and mid term best served by peaceful and cooperative
co-existence and by helping ensure the prosperity of both involved
factions.

1.0 Conditions
1.a - This pact is intended to further the chances of victory for both
involved factions by creating trade income and an environment where
resources are not wasted guarding against each other and where trades of
information or technology can occur without needing to fear this
information/technology will shortly after be used against oneself.
1.b - Sovereignty of each factions starting continent. Bases or crawlers
cannot use the other factions continent. Unpopped pods on the others
continent or in the water on the coastal line or inside a bases radius
should be left alone by the other faction.
1.c - Trades will occur when agreed upon by both factions
1.d - Units in the other factions territory must be withdrawn if
requested.
1.e - Factions are allowed differing foreign policy. However, each
factions foreign policy should be transparent to the other faction.
1.f - When trading of units, techs, comm frequencies and other useful
information with a faction that is an enemy of either Drones or the Hive,
the other faction must agree to the exchange. An enemy is defined as a
faction where the current diplomatic state is that of war.
1.g - The pact will run for minimum 50 turns from the time unless both
parties agree to end it beforehand.
1.h - Notice of termination must be given minimum 10 turns in advance.
1.i - Each faction is free to pursue its own goal of victory including
making other alliances.
1.j - Each faction has a right to the land on their on continent. Sea
squares that can be accessed by bases of both factions will be given to
the first base that has the square inside city limits.
1.k - SPs close to completion by one faction should not be rush built by
the other faction. Close to completion means expected to complete in
three turns or less with current production.
1.l - Sea bases should not be founded closer than 5 squares from the
coast of the other factions continent.

2.0 Issues that can be addressed during course of the pact
2.a - The initial terms of the pact can be amended by an agreement from
both factions.
2.b - Connecting the two starting continents requires approval from both
factions. Pre land raising borders will continue to hold in the agreement
of territorial rights.
2.c - Important issues not covered by the pact or inadequately covered
are addressed by a 1 faction 1 vote system. If the two decisions differ
the factions will agree to disagree.
2.d - Issues of lesser importance can determined by (hive percentage vote
* 0.5) + (drone percentage vote * 0.5). Either the hive chairman or drone
foreman can decide at any time whether an issue is important.

3.0 Expected Behaviour
3.a - Expected behaviour is not a rule, just a recommendation.
3.b - Both drones and hive should send reinforcements in the event of an
invasion of the home continent.
3.c - Research plans should be coordinated.
3.d - The pact and terms of the pact should remain hidden as long as
possible to reduce undue attention from the other factions. In case of
breach of rules by one party the other party is however free publish the
contract as well the details of the breach.
3.e - The hive and drones should attempt to assist each other in war.
3.f - The hive and drones should be open about their relations with and
plans for other factions.
3.g - Transparency should be kept at a high level to avoid mutual
suspicion building up. Particularly if large scale millitary preparations
are occuring.
3.h - Underhanding dealings or circumventing maneuvers, though maybe not
in direct violation of a particular paragraph but clearly violating its
spirit should be avoided. Examples of such would be but are not limited
to:
* Feeding information, technology or units to a third party well
knowing it will then by the third party be forwarded to an enemy or
well knowing the third party is preparing millitary action towards
the pact-brother.
* Attemts of deception - such as pretending that diplomatic relations
with a third faction are other than what they actually are.
* Withholding knowledge of imminent millitary action towards the the
pact brother by a third party.
* Taking steps to diplomatically isolate the pact brother.

3.i - In the case one factions enters an agreement with a third faction
that includes shared victory this should be clearly told to the other
faction.

[Kody]

There's a problem with the civgaming site.

___________________________________

bash-2.05$ traceroute www.civgaming.net
traceroute: unknown host www.civgaming.net
___________________________________

It looks like a dns problem.

I think it the dns is cached on my system to be 217.157.9.100 so I did a traceroute

___________________________________

bash-2.05$ traceroute 217.157.9.100
traceroute to 217.157.9.100 (217.157.9.100), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 216.127.80.1 (216.127.80.1) 0.767 ms 0.353 ms 0.291 ms
2 twhou-ni-1.ev1.net (207.218.245.9) 0.517 ms 0.380 ms 0.368 ms
3 289.ge-4-2-0.mpr2.iah1.us.mfnx.net (216.200.251.27) 0.980 ms 0.979 ms 1.013 ms
4 so-0-0-0.mpr1.iah1.us.above.net (64.125.31.61) 0.794 ms 0.899 ms 0.719 ms
5 pos2-0.er1.atl4.us.above.net (64.125.31.26) 13.431 ms 13.375 ms 13.543 ms
6 so-4-0-0.cr1.lga2.us.mfnx.net (208.184.232.166) 28.750 ms 28.707 ms 28.673 ms
7 so-0-0-0.cr1.lga1.us.mfnx.net (208.185.0.245) 28.827 ms 28.742 ms 28.745 ms
8 pos0-0.pr1.lga1.us.above.net (208.185.0.238) 29.073 ms 28.949 ms 29.180 ms
9 nyk-i1-pos3-0.telia.net (213.248.82.157) 29.043 ms 28.910 ms 28.963 ms
10 nyk-bb1-pos1-2-0.telia.net (213.248.82.13) 38.260 ms 38.254 ms 38.297 ms
11 kbn-bb1-pos2-1-0.telia.net (213.248.64.21) 120.179 ms 120.310 ms 120.506 ms
12 kbn-b2-pos13-0.telia.net (213.248.64.58) 126.645 ms 119.904 ms 119.708 ms
13 cybercity-01382-kbn-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.78.90) 128.088 ms 127.799 ms *
14 * *
___________________________________

So I'm guessing the civgaming server is turned off and the reason for the DNS failure is because they don't have a 2nd party hosting their dns.

Kody

[Kody]

Anyway when the civgaming server comes up again.

Would Rokossovky, Vev, Voltiare join up. I assume that Voltiare, Rokossovky, Vev, HongHu(already joined) should be signed up at least.

Octavian X, Micha, Haon, Alinestra Covelia, and Tassadar(using a different username), should also be signed up. Although I still need to read the forum rules and the chairman ultimately has the final say.

Kody

[Kody]

Email
Mongoose,

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003, Mongoose wrote:

> Kody,
>
> On other matters, Buster has created an Embassy forum for Hivers at CGN. So
> far, only you have access to it. (non-drone access. I should say) Merely
> inform Buster of any other persons desiring access and the CGN username of
> that person so that he can enable them to view and to post there. His
> instructions in that forum are likely more clear than this effort of mine to
> relate them.
>

Civgaming isn't working for me as the DNS doesn't resolve. Voltaire will
probably read Busters rules first and then figure out which people from
the hive should join.

> We will certainly provide IE next turn. We were awaiting agreement on the
> joint research program for IA before sending it.
>
> If you like, I am authorized to offer an exchange of maps.
>

When the embassy forum starts working perhaps we can do an exchange of the
map screenshots. If one of our factions is compromised by a probe team the
other faction will still be uncompromised. This idea needs to be discussed
in the hive forum first.

> Regards,
>
> Mongoose
>
> PS. You note that I have resumed spelling your name correctly...I must have
> been having extended brain cramping earlier in the week. Getting old is a
> *****.
>

You put up with my two or three replies to your every email and I'll put
up with you spelling my name incorrectly every now and again. We'll call
it even.

Regards,

Kody

[Kody]

When the embassy forum starts working perhaps we can do an exchange of the
map screenshots. If one of our factions is compromised by a probe team the
other faction will still be uncompromised. This idea needs to be discussed
in the hive forum first.

It's an idea, but at the moment it's being mainly used as a stalling technique. Voltaire doesn't want to trade maps yet, but since they have offered we want to keep the offer open and also stall without seeming reluctant.

Kody

[Snowflake]

Very good response Comrade!

[Kody]

Just a question.

Is there anyone in the hive that doesn't want to visit the embassy forum at CGN? We may need an offical embassy cross poster if that is the case.

Basically copy the offical posts in the embassy forum to this thread.

Kody

[Kody]

Email

I'd say that was OK (instead of ceding control of a unit, it'd be like the
US-UK lend-lease arrangement of WW II)

G.