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Manaic: 2 points. The first is that argument with Flubber was mostly bo**ocks on my part. I wanted hom to think we didn't need it. We do. For builder style and for SPs, we need it badly. Though I'm not going to tell him that.
The second is that even if it weren't even, it doesn't mean we don't gain. We do not lose if we agree, in anyway. They may get a better deal, but we get a good deal too. Unevenness does not equal a lose for one and a gain for another. This is not a zero sum game. We gain a tech and an ally, as do they. Nobody loses anything whatsoever. IMHO, 20 Ec at this stage is not to be sniffed at. Remember waiting about 7 or 8 turns to change to Planned because we didn't have the 40 Ec needed? Also, I think it is an even trade anyway. I think with 20 Ec we are gaining. We need Rec Commons just as much as they do. Logic Loop needs one, both to avoid nervestapling and to provide a long term solution.
We need this trade at least as much as them. Not that I will tell them that. I am surprised I got any consession out of Flubber, but we do need this trade. Without it, we are throwing away a tech and enough goodwill to account for much tech trading. We have a massive advantage ATM with regards to meeting someone, and the possibilities of extra trade. Let us not waste it. I reitterate. We have nothing to lose.
Smile For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Maniac: We won't get more than 20. I can tell you now we will not get a single Ec more than that. I wanted to make the point that I agree with him, as that greatly strengthens how he feels, and thus how much he argues for getting that 20 Ec. I don't think they will get us 20, he said that as a max. I expect them to offer 10. I need him to feel like I am on his side. If he thinks we need more, then we will get nothing, as he won't offer any more. AT this stage of the game, 20 is quite useful IMHO. I am extremely surprised to get anything out of him, he's a hell of a tough cookie, but I think it is a good idea either way. If we get Ec, great bonus. This is the way most likely to get us the most Ec.
It's at times like this I am so glad I research Game Theory in relation to economics and psychology. I really think we could be throwing away the game if we don't trade, and don't help allies. It is logical. What is the reasoning against. I understand the distrust, but you would let your distrust mean that we lose out on trade, even when a Pact after seems likely, and thus an assurance of their intentions? They are bending and compromising, we need to do that too. It is the way we will gain the most.
Smile For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
However there are many voices in the CyCon who still oppose a SocPsych<->PlaNets trade, and still consider PlaNets<->Doc:Flex the only fair deal. So if you only offer a mere extra 20 ec, there's the chance the deal will not be accepted.
Just letting you know, Flubber, to aid the discussions in your faction.
At the moment, Flubber is the man who can convince them. Flubber is the man we need onside. We need to make him feel like he has a good chance of success. He already said he was not sure of our intentions. I have spend hours trying to convince him. This will not look good. I understand your intentions are good, and you are of course free to write such, but I think you have damaged our cause by doing so. The deal is good without a sweetener, and we will gain from it. Please don't let your personal feelings for Flubber get in the way of seeing this. I don't mean to be harsh, as this may seem. That is not intended. However I think if you think about this, you will find it hard to come up with a reason not to trade. I can't. We need allies to win this game. We will not beat PUT on our own. Please Maniac. Understand that this may be our best chance for a long term friendship with a strong faction (Herc and Flubber are very good MP players in my experience) and a possible victory.
Smile For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Originally posted by Maniac
Altogether, I sent this message to Drogue, Archaic and Tkg, besides yourself
I was looking through this page and happened to notice this (again). Did you get a response?
Comrade Corellion, Secretary of Science and Social Engineering for the Human Hive in the Alpha Centauri Police State Game (ACPSG).
Function Corelli Omega-9, Internal Affairs Function (Terms 110, 101, 100, 011, and 010) and Advisor on Foreign Affairs (Term 001) for the Cybernetic Consciousness in the Alpha Centauri Democracy Team Game (ACDTG).
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one.
re the Archaic thing, I thought I had sent you this message:
Fortunately Cap'n Flubber noticed my error and I was able to delete the copy of the message I had accidentally sent to Archaic by who knows what mental lapse before it was delivered - Hopefully it won't get delivered anyway, it at least looks like it has been deleted. I also did the same to the copy I had sent to TKG so as not to alarm him should he notice that I had sent it to Archaic (and also, if TKG actually gets it anyway, despite my having deleted it, it will tell us that Archaic probably did too). Sorry if you got an unpleasant surprise - Cap'n Flubber was remarkably calm, but maybe that is the way he is when he is sharpening his dirk and sneaking up behind me. Anyway, my face is red, and not just from the xenorum.
via Poly PM, but apparently it didn't go out, so here it is, to my embarrassment (and I hope relief too).
Its good to know that there are some implacable enemies out there; it will make it less likely that you will double-cross us down the road
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Steenbeke"
To:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: Dangling correspondence
> Hi Johndmuller,
>
> Poly's has given me the "server too busy" message, so I'll e-mail my PM
> response. :-)
>
> ***
>
> Hello Cuspidore Brownie,
>
> I've already settled the discussion with Flubber in your temporary absence.
> I've given my blessing to a PlaNets<->SocPsych trade, and I'm confident the
> rest of the Consciousness will follow after having seen Flubber's arguments.
>
>
>
Altogether, I sent this message to Drogue, Archaic and Tkg, besides
> yourself,
>
> I hope "Archaic" is a typing error!! Archaic is Dean of the Evil
> University, no Cyborg of our Glorious Consciousness. It would be very sad if
> he was aware of our internal dealings. Have you already met the UoP perhaps?
> If so, I personally would love to sign a pact with the Pirates to crush
> those ivory-tower professors. There are a few members of the CyCon, and also
> Hercules in your PEACE faction I think, who'd love to settle some unfinished
> business with Archaic.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Mani Alpha-3
>
> ***
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Ontvang je Hotmail & Messenger berichten op je mobiele telefoon met Hotmail
> SMS http://www.msn.be/gsm/smsservices
>
I think as long as he uses completely different url's for each, if others meet, then it should be ok. Unless another faction has such a webpage too, I don't see them guessing that url. Maybe making others different?
Smile For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
It's fine as it is IMHO. I see there are others that have met too. Maniac could be right on the money, although if we are still top tech-wise, then the PUT have not traded, they got a extra with SotHB, and with the tech rate required to get that, we can't be outteching them. That is if they did discover it, and it's not misinformation
Smile For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
I expect another heavy round of negotiating with the Pirates is coming up. Drogue and I received the following PM (from johndmuller) and e-mail (from Hercules):
PM - Possible tech opportunity
I am also sending a copy of this to Drogue; please forward to whomever else is appropriate; Cap'n Flubber is starting a vacation and most likely is at least temoporarily out of contact, so I took the initiative to contact you after some internal discussion on our end. Please respond to myself (the Cuspidore), Cap'n Hercules and Cap'n Flubber (all three if you don't mind as we are in different time zones and may any of us be hard to get) and failing us three, try someone else on our faction list. This is a fairly time-sensitive thing as we are currently holding the turn.
We have found ourselves in a position which has the potential to rapidly advance the tech levels of both our factions. It is not, however, a sure thing and we wish to sound you out on this deal so that we do not go too far down the road if for some reason (like if you were a Hive agent wanting to ruin opportunities for the CyCon) you are not interested. Hopefully, we will be able to agree in pricniple to take the necessary steps to take advantage of the opportunity.
As you will be able to see in your view of our tech holdings, we have acquired Indust Econ. We believe that we may be able to also acquire Indust Base. Should we be able to do that and provide both techs to you before you finish researching the IndBase, it would be very possible for you to research Industrial Auto in just a few years from now.
We would of course need to work out a mutually agreeable exchange - that is, we would naturally expect to get the Indust Auto plus a fair recompense for the costs we have incurred and will incur acquiring the other techs.
Since our ability to acquire IndBase is not certain, and since you may not be offered Industrial Econ as a research target (and may need to research another of our techs such as Progen Psych for a turn, until we are able to give it to you to enable another switch), it would seem to be advisable for you to ****** your research by a turn or two. In light of this, we wish to make you aware of this suggestion so that you will have the time to deal with whatever internal processes you may have to take that action.
It appears that we could provide the techs as early as our next turn so that you would have it in 2129 just in time to switch to Ind Auto while still on your current research budget. That timetable does not have any slack in it, however, for either accomodating any delay we may incur in getting the IndBase or to deal with the possibility that the game may not offer IndAuto the first time around. So it would appear advisable for you to stretch out you research by changing your allocation to the extent necessary to delay by at least 1 turn.
Please advise us of your level of interest and of any areas you wish to discuss more fully.
Has Cuspidore BB ( aka JohndMuller) been in contact. If so then you know the gist of this contact.
In the course of playing the Peace turn 2127 an opportunity has arisen that could be of extremely useful mutual benefit. Our Ambassador Flubber may be on about to go on vacation , hence this direct approach.
In short we have Ind Econ and we have a chance of securing Ind Base next turn. The Cyborgs are within 2 years of discovering Ind Base.
Our thinking is to gift these two techs to you for our joint benefit (and of course, future payback) in order that you have the chance of discovering Ind Auto within 2 maybe three years, depending on the tech choices you are offered. This may require you to delay your discovery by 1 year. But you would have the Ind Auto pre-requisites, so it should be offered. Cuspidore BB ( JohnD) can explain.
You will note from the faction profiles that the Hive and the Drones have Ind Auto so we don't want to fall behind. This is an opportunity for both of us to leap frog to that tech.. To insure that we given the best chance of acquiring Ind Base, it may be important that you send over Applied Physics or Biogenetics next turn
But more on that when we are agreed in general principle.
We realise you need to consult colleagues but I am sure the Borg will see the logic. Please respond asap.
I already replied with the following quick PM:
PM - Tech opportunity
Hi Cap'ns,
I just wanted to tell you I've received your PM and mail. In general I'm of course positive to such a deal. After all IndAut is a very important tech for us (crawlers) and for you (Doc:Ini). There are a few things I'm confused about though. I'll ask about them asap in a next PM. Oh yes:
quote:
This is a fairly time-sensitive thing as we are currently holding the turn.
Pleaaaaaaaaase do not rush things like in the previous tech trade. :beg: I expect 48 hours should be plenty enough time to deal with some things.
Another point: Have you already received a PM from our External Affairs Function Drogue? For a few days we were actually planning to contact you ourselves concerning the Believers, but it hasn't happened yet, probably because of Drogue's IRL job.
Greetings,
Mani Alpha-3
Prime Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness
I have a few questions about their proposal which I'll ask them. For example, they have PlaNets and IndEco, the two prerequisites for IndAut. Then why can't they research IndAut themselves? Perhaps because they want to have it a critical decade earlier, but I'll ask them anyway.
Also there's the question where they got IndEco. I expect the PUT. I'll directly ask about it. The soft approach of first telling about the Believers and then asking if they have met any other factions would probably look ridiculous: we would look like complete fools to not realize they got their techs from other factions.
Also I'm wondering about Hercules' request to send over Applied Physics and Biogenetics (should we? - I'd like to keep access to the HGP restricted) over to them. I'm wondering if that is meant as a payment for IndBase and IndEco, or to trade with the (I presume) PUT in exchange for IndBase. If that would be the case, that would be quite preposterous. They want our techs so they can trade with another faction. Then they give us two techs (after all we also gave them two). But then they expect extra payment for IndAut which we researched for them. That's two techs we get in exchange for three techs they get. That's a tremendous advantage for them, especially considering they wouldn't get any tech themselves if we could directly trade with the PUT. They're really milking their aquatic advantage of easily meeting other factions!
IndAut is so important that I would actually agree with such an uneven deal, but I would like to try to get something more out of the deal, eg Doc:Flex or commlinks of other factions. What do you think?
In your discussion with Flubber you excellently summed up yourself the reasons for the unevenness of the trade and the way in which we are losing.
I hope "Archaic" is a typing error!! Archaic is Dean of the Evil 
I expect 48 hours should be plenty enough time to deal with some things. 
That's two techs we get in exchange for three techs they get. That's a tremendous advantage for them, especially considering they wouldn't get any tech themselves if we could directly trade with the PUT. They're really milking their aquatic advantage of easily meeting other factions!
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