PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Phenix]

Hmm... I could believe they noticed our tech sharing and derived that we had a pact.

But it seems almost impossible to me that the Hive is watching all "communiqués",
that they noticed the slightest change in them and then directly concluded CyCon-Peace relations had declined!

I see two possibilities here: either the Hive is very, very good at guessing or they're just cheating

[Maniac]

Posted by Drogue:

Well, I know I was a little coarser to Herc and JDM after the last round

Who knows they might have noticed that. As for me, I never had a high opinion of the Pirates in the first place, so my posts didn't become even less friendly I think.
On the other hand, I did make two references in 3D articles about our diplomatic contacts.

Posted by Phenix

I see two possibilities here: either the Hive is very, very good at guessing or they're just cheating

I think the cheating is the most likely possibility. Nevertheless, I still see the Hive, despite acting like complete idiots from time to time, as our most natural ally. So I think we shouldn't ask for any sanctions.

Anyway, I sent this PM. Perhaps we can still gain some advantage out of this. The Hive owe it to us.

Hi Drogue and Voltaire,

How about if we start being extra rude against each other in the CyCon-Peace thread? Other factions will think we hate each other' guts, which could prove an advantage in diplomacy.
That way we can get at least some benefit out of the mess coming from the Hive's cheating.

Greetings,

Maniac

[Corellion]

I know it's not against the word of the rules, but gleaning information from the power graphs seems to violate the spirit of the game. Sure, it's unavoidable to see the Who's who and the relative powers of everybody, but calculating information based on that (as Voltaire indicates Comrade Kody did) seems unbecoming a democracy game player. Futhermore, though I do think that Voltaire only accidentally posted on the main forum, this confirms that he has used our position as friends to try and gain an advantage in-game, certainly a breach of the spirit. In any case, grievous harm has come to our faction as a result of these events, as the information is out. Regardless of anything else, the thread title on the main forum says enough, even if it gives no specifics... people will assume from the title, and that is enough. The damage done to our faction goes beyond any in-game mechanics, and thus no sanctions can properly address the issue. Asking for sanctions, therefore, seems useless. I do think, however, that Googlie, or perhaps Tassadar, should do some serious investigating into some of the Hive's, especially Kody's, practices in this game. Furthermore, I know that most Hive turn-planning is done via MSN Messenger, thus making any illicit activities they engage in particularly easy to conceal. This is a serious issue in this game, and must be dealt with somehow.

[Drogue]

Like the idea Maniac

I agree with Corellion on the spirit, but I think we can minimise the damage. People will think/know that we met PEACE and have relations with them. But we know that about PEACE and PUT already. They may know already. Anyways, it is hardly that important information. Most factions will have met PEACE by now IMHO, since they can explore so quickly.

I do not think a disaster has happened. And I think the thread was an accident. Why would they want to post it? They have the knowledge, why give it to others?

I think from what I posted, and from 3D, they *could* have told that that happened. It may be cheating, but it may well not be too. Let us not lose a good ally over it.

[Drogue]

Actually, I am less sure about a Hive alliance now. They just seem so out for themselves, and sneaky, like PEACE. Mayeb the Drones would be better allies. I hate saying that, as they seem like nice people, except they have cheated on multiple occasions. Voiltaire still believes they weren't cheating, as his latest PM evidenced:

Perhaps, and it would be my indiscretion in such a case. I did not expect Corellion to tell me anything (I know him well enough that he would not). I simply shared the postulates we had made (I presented them as fact) and attempted to guess his reaction. He did more than I expected by presenting this information to you, and with your reply you confirmed it. An unexpectedly pleasant outcome for us.

There mere fact that he shared the information showed that there was something in there which may indeed have been true, with your response this almost guarantees it.

I admit fully this was a trick, though I do not believe it infringed any game rules because 1) I was discussion your relations with another faction, nor our own, 2) it was hypothetical, and 3) I was merely making observations to Corellion with no expectation of him confirming or denying it. I admit that the third one is indeed a bit sketchy when it comes to the game rules, for if he had indeed shared information with me it would have been a violation of game rules. Granted that’s for Googlie to decide.

Also, a friendly suggestion, try no to dance to the tune of your enemies. I did not expect the CyCon to be so compliant in my little game.

Sincerely,
Chairman Voltaire

[Corellion]

I had no intention of us sending him any message either, and thus was a little surprised when Drogue sent something. I had intended for us to discuss it and report to GooglieGod (or perhaps Tassadar). But, regardless, the information is out, and we now have to do something about it.

[Phenix]

(quote)
"Also, a friendly suggestion, try no to dance to the tune of your enemies. I did not expect the CyCon to be so compliant in my little game."
(quote)


So Voltaire states that it's actually our own fault that they got the information?
I don't like this at all... those games of him on the borderline of cheating,
IMHO Voltaire is manipulating way too much...

[Maniac]

those games of him on the borderline of cheating

Of course they are. Voltaire may deny it by giving three worthless arguments which are totally besides the point, which is that Voltaire communicated before contact. Period.

[Drogue]

Exactly. However I think we should let it go. Not too much harm hs come, especially if we keep up relations with the Hive. That is far more important than the manipulation. I replied to Voltaire that we did not see them as enemies, and should not have been contacted at all by them. He has promised to refrain from such manipulation, as I have pointed out how it breaks the rules. He has also agreed to Maniac's plan I have confirmed things with him and now I will refrainf rom PMing him, as we have righted somewhat the wrong done, and now we sould wait for in game contact IMHO.

The problem is that Flubber has PMed me to ask for a copy of what was said, as they were involved:

Drogue

Could you please forward me a copy of what was posted about our relations? I think its only fair that we as an affected party also see what is being said. Pm is fine or email me at sharris4141@yahoo.com

Flubber

He also asked why we told them:

IT appears you gave away the contact with us.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...517#post2118517

Its no big deal but it could give outside folks the hint they need to deduce our relations. Anyone pacted or infiltrating any faction gets the skinny on the relations with everyone

I explained the situation to him as such:

Actually no. What happened was that Kody looked at the power graph, and noted that we both shot up one turn. Voltaire, who knows Corellion personally, then questioned Corellion about it, and judged his reactions. Corellion was worried at how accurate their information was, as every guess was spot on (though he tried not to let on about this obviously). He posted in our forum that they knew this and were they cheating, so I confronted Voltaire and asked him how they found this out, as we believed that either they were cheating or had been told by someone. Their explanation was that they guessed a Pact from the power graph as they knew we were trading, but had noticed that we were a little brisk with each other lately on the forum and so guessed there were problems there.

Basically, they know (or at leats suspect, and from our reaction to their 'cheating' think they have been shown to be correct) that we are Pacted, and that there have been difficulties. IMHO they have breached the rules, in trying to trick Corellion into giving them a reaction, before we have met in game. That should not be discussing the game. However the thread we believe was a mistake.

I am sorry for any hardship, however we believe that Voltaires actions required us to confront him about how they had found out the information, even if it confirmed their guesses.

- Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

I am sorry for the contact earlier with Voltaire. I was merely trying to find if they had cheated. Yes I may have confirmed it, and I am sorry for that, but I felt I needed to confront Voltaire. Besides, if we become friends with them, it won't matter. And if we don't, it's not a massive peace of info, as they pretty much knew anyway

[Phenix]

Good explication for Peace, I hope they atleast believe us

[Drogue]

Likewise. Flubber is usually a decent bloke though.

[Corellion]

Indeed... this certainly can't help our relations though.

[Maniac]

Honored Maniac

I have reviewed your message and hope to provide a detailed trade offer to you later today ( Real LIfe commitments means it will be about 8 hours from this message). Essentially we need to agree on how we get Doc flex in your hands , so you can switch to something else.

Ambassador Flubber

Chief Sweettalker o' the PEACE

[Maniac]

I received a double PM from Flubber. As I predicted, they're trying to get an uneven deal again. I'm glad I asked to save cash for trading with the AI factions...

( Long message --in 2 parts)

Greetings to the Honored Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function


AS a friend, we see that you are researching doc flex and it is our wish to provide that tech to you for fair compensation. That tech is considered our national treasure and it is with much reluctance that we trade it outside the confidential circle of the the Council of Captains . But the time has come to share this knowledge with our friends.



So the simple question is what can you give us in return for doc flex? As it stands, you "owe" us a tech from previous deals and I believe we would both want to clear up that outstanding obligation as part of this trade round .

I don't think you have any current tech of interest so the obvious compensation for Doc Flex is a tech in the future . That is acceptable in principle but our people feel a little miffed that you chose to research doc flex last time when you knew that a tech was owed to us. Our people felt t it was an unspoken part of the deal that you would research a tech to return to us as soon as possible. However , if we did not nail down that point, its not something to upset our relations over, just something to learn from.

The offer I want to put out there is this:


COMPLETING THE PRIOR DEAL

1. WE send you Doc flex prior to your discovery of it so you can switch to another tech for free. . .

2. You switch to ethical calculus immediately ( if possible) or some TRADE TECH ( if its not) and send said tech to us at the date we request.

***( Note that a "TRADE TECH " is a non-level one tech that we do not have have and which we do not indicate as unacceptable, at the time we send doc flex, as we will acquire it soon . (For example: Doc INI )

( end part 1)

(part 2-- read part 1 first)

COMPENSATION FOR DOC FLEX

OK we would love to trade you doc flex straight up for a tech we want right now. IF you don't have one now, we will accept some TRADE TECH. But the reality is you probably can't get a new tech to us in less than 10 years so our proposal is a TRADE TECH plus 40 ec. This reflects the fact that a tech now is worth more than a tech later and that we are essentially trading for an unknown tech to be given at some unknown future time . Since we are trading for an unknown, we would want the right to reject the first tech you offer and choose among the next two "TRADE TECHS" you acquire. The chosen tech would be passed to us on request.


Guarantees of a fast return

Your choice to research doc flex when a tech was owed us was good negotiating on your part. WE didn't think to bind you to consequences if the tech was not returned in a speedy manner. WE do wish to get a tech back in as soon a time as possible on the doc flex deal and propose two conditions.


1. Interest-- Essentially you will owe us a tech and we would see interest as being applicable if it is not returned as soon as possible . MY operations folks tell me your research is similar to ours so at leat 10 years would be appropriate . WE propose interest of 2 ec per year from years 10-15, increasing to 5 ec per year from years 16-20 and 25 ec per year from years 21 onward ( years counted from the year we send you doc flex). The early interest is minor additional compensation for the delay while the late year interest is designed to make it important to you to complete the deal within an achievable time frame.

2. Mortgage-- we retain a security interest in doc flex until it is paid for . . You may use it to build boats etc but you may not trade it on to anyone else until a " TRADE TECH" is offered to us.


Neither interest or the mortgage apply once you have offered a "TRADE TECH" to us, whether we accept that particular tech or not. In ADDITION, if you make an effort to research a a "TRADE TECH" , neither the mortgage or interest would apply from the time you complete that tech ( and could offer it to us), even if we already acquired it elsewhere in the meantime. You would still owe us a tech but your good faith effort would be enough to end the conditions. Realistically , we would be looking at making a new deal to give you the tech you were researching so we could leapfrog research again.

CONCLUSION

Making a deal is in both our interests. This is a straight deal of doc flex for some future tech unknown tech and a little cash. The cash is there for us because there are scenarios where we might not get a tech back for years and years. We have also tried to be fair in that a good faith effort to return a new tech to us will mean the " Guarantees" section of this offer will be pretty much irrelevant .

We are still trying to forge strong ties but we acknowledge that each side must feel they are getting a benefit from the deal . We do remain open to alternate offers so if you have something to offer, let us know . Throw something in the pot ! I can say that the idea of some unknown tech, years down the road, with no other consideration or conditions would not be viewed as a fair deal by Peace.

Thats the offer. I look forward to your response and hope that this round of trade talks will lead to strengthened relations between our peoples. The benefits of trade are clear and we regard you as our closest friends and trading partners. We look forward to forging even closer ties .

Ambassador Flubber

Chief Sweetalker o' the PEACE

If I don't get any comments or suggestions in the next few hours, I plan to send this PM to the Pirates:

Greetings most honoured Ambassador Flubber,

I haven't received many comments yet from the Collective, but I'll already give you the opinion of the External Affairs Functionality.

We don't have any problem with the first part of your communiqué. This means we would be willing to switch our research to Ethical Calculus after you have given us Doctrine: Flexibility, and give that tech to you to finish the Industrial Automation deal.

We do have some questions about the second part of your communiqué.

In the first paragraph you say you want a tech plus another 40 credits in return for DocFlex. The reason you offer is because you are trading for a tech which you will only get several years down the road.

However in the paragraph below that you present yet another series of conditions and extra burdens for us, again with as reason because you will only get a tech in return several years down the road.

So just to be clear I have to ask: Do you want a tech and some interests or mortgage in return for DocFlex, or do you want a tech, interest or mortgage and 40 credits?

As for the proposal itself, we believe it would be acceptable for us not to trade DocFlex to any other faction we meet until we repay you our debts. We do pose serious questions about your requests for credits though. The small advantage we would gain by trading with you does not justify the amounts of credits you are asking.

To make our case more clear, we would like to remind you that we will research DocFlex ourselves in a mere five turns. Also we would like to bring to your attention again the fact that both the Believers and Angels possess knowledge of Doctrine : Flexibility. Because I, Mani Alpha-3, expected the traditional difficulties in our negotiations with you, PEACE, I asked the Internal Affairs Function to build up an energy credit reserve. That reserve is steadily building up. In a few turns we will have around 100 to 150 credits. If you cannot or will not offer us a sufficiently beneficial deal around the principle one-tech-for-one-tech, we will use that cash reserve to buy DocFlex from the faction that gives us a better deal.

We can buy DocFlex from three different factions. Please keep in mind that we are doing you a favour by negotiating with you first, and offering you the ability to tell us freely what techs you would prefer in exchange for DocFlex.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

[Nubclear]

In reading this thread, I would like to announce I have begun an investigation into the Hives posession of knowledge.

Don't tell Voltaire or anyone else in the Hive. If you do, I will be unable to investigate. All results of my investigation will be sent to Drogue via PM, and he/she (sorry, I forgot ) may then PM the results to Maniac if he/she wishes.

If you wish to protest this for whatever reason, you may file a complaint with the GM, Googlie.

Also, I do understand your suspicions of me and while I don't think they were justified, they were certainly understood and no offense was taken

Also, with regards to the Pirates.... I'm glad you two are such close allies