CCCP's Workshop.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Two questions for STEPist and CCCPians :

1. Should both the CCCP and STEP favor an overall policy to Green as soon as it becomes available, in order to avoid splitting of votes ?

Yes.

2. What should be our policy toward Deirdre ?
She would probably be glad to make a Pact for a tech, I would agree if it is still "Doctrine : Loyalty ", as in the current turn.

A pact is optimum, even if it weren't for Doctrine:Loyalty.

[lucky22]

We experienced a significant number of drone riots last session. I am of course in favor of an infrastructural solution, but unless the number of units away from base renders the point moot, Archaic may be entitled to his gloat around our decision to remain at planned. Please tell me I'm wrong. (I wish I was up and running at home so I could just look at the current game for myself, but we haven't yet gotten into order since moving in mid-December.)

[Pandemoniak]

A switch to green in about 7 turns should change the problem

[Archaic]

Except that it would kill our growth, undesirable at this stage when we're still supposedly following an ICS strategy. *YAWN* Oh yes, and we wouldn't have all the nice Golden Ages we'd have under FM if those troops were pulled back and that one Rec Commons was completed (Which is completed next turn anyway, is it not?).

*Leaves*

[Drogue]

Say a statement and then leave... Great arguing Archaic. Green is certainly a viable solution, if you value efficiency, eco-support, controling MW and IoDs, help against worm rape, the friendship of Deirdre and the ability to explore and use units outside of base squares more that some extra energy. Yes the growth is a bad thing, but we have had +2 from growth for some time, and then having a -2 for some time, which is at a less important time (less need for growth later on in the game) is better than having 0 growth all along from FM.

[Pandemoniak]

The two examples you quote are only for next turn. As long as we grow, we'll have more and more troubles with drones, and FM will only increase these problems. If its still feasible to go FM right now without experiencing too much drones problems, I doubt it will still be the case when we'll really be at war with the Hive and when we'll have even more bases, even more populated.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
Say a statement and then leave... Great arguing Archaic. Green is certainly a viable solution, if you value efficiency, eco-support, controling MW and IoDs, help against worm rape, the friendship of Deirdre and the ability to explore and use units outside of base squares more that some extra energy. Yes the growth is a bad thing, but we have had +2 from growth for some time, and then having a -2 for some time, which is at a less important time (less need for growth later on in the game) is better than having 0 growth all along from FM.

You whimpered before when I started debating in this thread. Is this an invitation?

Efficiency? Efficiency is good, but Economy is better for our current number of bases.

Eco-support? You put undue emphasis on it.

Controling MW and IoDs? Pah. Useless things at this stage of the game. Conventional Units surpass them/

The friendship of Deirdre? I'd rather the friendship of someone with a decent economy and who is closer to our territories. Say....Morgan.

Use units outside of base squares? What is your obsession with sending military units outside the PK territories anyway? Use Probe Teams/Foils or other unarmed units. We don't need to attack anyone with a direct assult anyway.

-2 Growth later in the game is fine.....but we're not in the late game. We're still expanding and TRYING TO GROW.


FM isn't just "some extra energy". It's better research. Better conditions of life for our citizens (No more of Pan's Child Labour!). Better fostering of international relationships though trade. And much more.

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
The two examples you quote are only for next turn. As long as we grow, we'll have more and more troubles with drones, and FM will only increase these problems. If its still feasible to go FM right now without experiencing too much drones problems, I doubt it will still be the case when we'll really be at war with the Hive and when we'll have even more bases, even more populated.

With a 20% Psych Rate? Doubtful. You *do* realise just how much that is under FM, and how much it increases as more and more facilities are built? You constantly overestimate Drone Problems for FM, yet they're worst under your own Planned Economics. Typical.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Archaic
You whimpered before when I started debating in this thread. Is this an invitation?

It is not my thread, and therefore not mine to give.

Originally posted by Archaic
Efficiency? Efficiency is good, but Economy is better for our current number of bases.

Opinion labelled as fact, like most of what I read of yours on this issue.

Originally posted by Archaic
Eco-support? You put undue emphasis on it.

Controling MW and IoDs? Pah. Useless things at this stage of the game. Conventional Units surpass them.

The friendship of Deirdre? I'd rather the friendship of someone with a decent economy and who is closer to our territories. Say....Morgan.

Use units outside of base squares? What is your obsession with sending military units outside the PK territories anyway? Use Probe Teams/Foils or other unarmed units. We don't need to attack anyone with a direct assult anyway.

-2 Growth later in the game is fine.....but we're not in the late game. We're still expanding and TRYING TO GROW.

All as I said, it depends what you value more. You obviously value more energy, myself and Pande obviously don't. We all know your opinion on them, you think we overestimate them, we think you underestimate them. Is there really anything new you've said here? Native units are a lot more useful than you give them credit for. They may not be as good as conventional units (although I think they are, especially with +2 Planet, fighting decent defensive units, and before Fusion Power) but they are free, which is a big bonus. Moreover, IoDs can act as armed transports, something there is not a conventional unit for.

Originally posted by Archaic
FM isn't just "some extra energy". It's better research. Better conditions of life for our citizens (No more of Pan's Child Labour!). Better fostering of international relationships though trade. And much more.

It's better research, more Ecs and more psych, depending on your settings. That's more energy to me. And despite what you claim, and your beliefs on a FM with laws, with services etc. that is not what this is about. We have to choose between pure FM, pure Planned and pure Green, as we have no other choices. In pure FM, you have child labour, if labour is worth the childrens time, unless our government votes it illegal, which is exactly the same as Planned. FM does not rid us of child labour at all. We get no better international relations under FM, since we loss Morgan (a very underdeveloped hinderance to our expansion, who will be no help defending ourselves against the Hive) and gain Deirdre (a powerful nation, no hinderence to colonization and who is currently winning the fight against the Spartans): I know who I would prefer to be an ally of. We may get more research, and thus more trade, but considering we're ahead of everyone else (except Zak now?) in terms of technology, we will hardly get more trade from it.

Originally posted by Archaic
With a 20% Psych Rate? Doubtful. You *do* realise just how much that is under FM, and how much it increases as more and more facilities are built? You constantly overestimate Drone Problems for FM, yet they're worst under your own Planned Economics. Typical.

Worse under FM? But we have 3 exploration units for a start outside of base, with more coming. Even if at the moment there are less drones with 20% psych FM, it won't stay that way when we start on the Hive proper, as Pande has said.

[Pandemoniak]

(No more of Pan's Child Labour!)

lmao, that was fallacious. Everyone knows children are at the Children Creches, when they're too young to come to the Rec Commons...

[Archaic]

From the Communist Manifesto
"10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. "

Let me highlight that.
"10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc."

You're right. They're in the Creches. BEING FORCED INTO MANUAL LABOUR!

[Pandemoniak]

ok let me put it clear to you :

Spoiler:

Translation from Russian
"It must not happen again"

First, what the manifesto says in French, closer to its original language, is :

10.Education publique et gratuite de tous les enfants. Abolition du travail des enfants dans les fabriques tel qu'il est pratiqué aujourd'hui. Combinaison de l'éducation avec la production matérielle, etc.

and not
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Meaning : Free and public education for all children, unlike "free education for all children [that are] in public schools. There is nothing but public schools.

Second the combination of education with material -- material, not industrial -- production doesnt mean childrens do half time hard labour, half time studies, it means their education is oriented to a materialist education -- teach them the meaning of work, not as something you earn your life with, but as something you do on a material object A to have a material object B. Instead of spoiling childrens, making them work for benefits, we should teach them the real meaning of work, being the first "divertissement"(not entertainment, see Jean Giono's "Un roi sans divertisement" for further details, if interested) philosophically speaking.

[Pandemoniak]

ok i got it : Vereinigung der Erziehung mit der materiellen Produktion

Systran says : Combination of the education with material production

I think everyone will agree that it is mean for materialist education, not industrial labour.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
ok i got it : Vereinigung der Erziehung mit der materiellen Produktion

Systran says : Combination of the education with material production

I think everyone will agree that it is mean for materialist education, not industrial labour.

Apprenticeships and technical education.

[Archaic]

Sorry Pan, but the translation I gave you was the authorised English translation by Samuel Moore of 1888, with a preface by Frederick Engels, who co-wrote the Manifesto with Marx in the first place. You lose.

[Pandemoniak]

Sorry but the german version I gave you is the one Marx and Engels wrote themself, in their orginal language. You lose, and I spotted a mistake of translation.

In german : industriell = industrial
while material = material