Would you buy Civ5 if it was only offered on Steam?

[wodan11]

Another possible solution is a hardware key. A USB drive that has a hardware license integrated into the chip. Amounts to the same thing as a DVD, but harder for pirates to defeat.

[Modo44]

Another possible solution is a hardware key. A USB drive that has a hardware license integrated into the chip. Amounts to the same thing as a DVD, but harder for pirates to defeat.

Yeah, I won't use Steam, but I'll love the drivers needed for a key like that to work. And I bet it's cheap to make, too.

How come Paradox is still in business, even though they keep releasing games without DRM?

[wodan11]

Yeah, I won't use Steam, but I'll love the drivers needed for a key like that to work.

You wouldn't need any drivers at all. (In fact, quite a bit of software released, especially about 10-15 yrs ago, used such keys running off serial ports. This is actually old technology, it's just that the market stopped using it. But, when you combine it with a USB drive, you can realize the cost savings by not having to also make a bunch of DVDs, which you couldn't do with a serial port hardware key.) So, combining this "old" technology with the new, efficient USB drive technology might have some benefits.

And I bet it's cheap to make, too.

Sounds like you're being sarcastic. You're aware that USB drives are now cheap enough that many companies give them away for free as promotional items?

[wodan11]

How come Paradox is still in business, even though they keep releasing games without DRM?

Looks to me as though they have DRM, it's just electronic rather than hardware based.

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/59269

[Modo44]

I was talking about the DVD versions. They have special Steam versions that I wouldn't touch (people keep having problems there). My HoI3 folder is a working, fully standalone installation. It doesn't ask for any Internet or DVD access, and it survived a Windows reinstall without any problems (different partition, naturally).

Sounds like you're being sarcastic.

If you need a separate USB stick for the game, then it's additional cost, hence my sarcasm. If the whole game can come on one high-speed USB stick (data and key in one), then it would be a welcome approach, especially for ultra-light laptops. But high-speed USB sticks are probably more expensive than DVDs.

[Dale]

How come Paradox is still in business, even though they keep releasing games without DRM?

How convenient that you forgot to mention that if you want to download any patches, or access support, or download mods, or basically anything other than post in the ignored "general" forum at Paradox Plaza, that you need to electronically register your serial number, online.

You may have a functional game, but a release day version un-patched full of bugs (we all know Paradox's history concerning releasing flawless games). Saying Paradox has no DRM is not entirely accurate.

[Modo44]

How convenient that you forgot to mention that if you want to download any patches, or access support, or download mods, or basically anything other than post in the ignored "general" forum at Paradox Plaza, that you need to electronically register your serial number, online.

Are you not well informed, or simply lying? Only a few specific things, like direct support, require registration at the Paradox forum. Patches and most mods are available without registering (not only there, but also on general download sites, and fan sites).

[wodan11]

I was talking about the DVD versions. They have special Steam versions that I wouldn't touch (people keep having problems there).

I've heard enough about Steam that, given a choice between Steam and pretty much anything else, I probably would choose the something else. That's the same answer I gave for Vista, and I still have a free copy of Vista sitting on the shelf, unopened.

If you need a separate USB stick for the game, then it's additional cost, hence my sarcasm.

Right, but the same statement could be said about DVDs. If you need to send a DVD for the game, that's an additional cost. So sarcasm is unfounded. Until/unless we get to downloadable games over the internet, there's always going to be some sort of physical media distribution.

If the whole game can come on one high-speed USB stick (data and key in one), then it would be a welcome approach, especially for ultra-light laptops. But high-speed USB sticks are probably more expensive than DVDs.

Well of course they are. But not that much more, and it's a moot point: you're looking purely at the manufacturing cost. The company would easily recoup the extra expense by reducing losses to pirates. And, what about distribution costs? I'm not willing to postulate that it'll be cheaper to distribute but I can see how it might be.

And, they have the benefit of being RW media which do not detract from drive space. Patches etc can be downloaded directly to the drive.

[Modo44]

By "separate USB stick" I meant "separate in addition to the DVD". It's less of a cost problem if it's an USB stick instead of a DVD.

The company would easily recoup the extra expense by reducing losses to pirates.

Have you any proof that DRM actually helps the bottom line? Or do I need to remind you of Spore?

And, they have the benefit of being RW media which do not detract from drive space. Patches etc can be downloaded directly to the drive.

That's a good point. It would be a great feature to have a fully updated game at all times. If only we could pitch this to the people making the actual decisions (i.e. marketing ).

[rah]

Disc space is so cheap that it really isn't a factor anymore.
Let me download it online and forget about it. If an update/patch comes up I go back to the source and download it. no muss no fuss. D2D forever. I never have to search for the DVD/CD. Actually, I find all other methods of distribution out dated and silly.

[wodan11]

By "separate USB stick" I meant "separate in addition to the DVD". It's less of a cost problem if it's an USB stick instead of a DVD.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. I had no thought of advocating a USB drive if it wasn't going to also carry the software, wasn't what I meant at all.

Have you any proof that DRM actually helps the bottom line? Or do I need to remind you of Spore?

Have you any proof that it doesn't? (And, don't set up a straw man of DRM which is easily defeated by pirates. An actual chip would be much more difficult, as compared to a software key on a CD/DVD.)

That's a good point. It would be a great feature to have a fully updated game at all times. If only we could pitch this to the people making the actual decisions (i.e. marketing ).

That's always the problem. Some suit somewhere making decisions. Not only are they isolated from the real world, but they tend to be very conservative and go with what has been done in the past. As if tradition is a good reason for doing anything.

Disc space is so cheap that it really isn't a factor anymore.

It's not the expense of the space so much as wear/tear on the drive, plus the nontransportability of the drive (between machines).

[Modo44]

Have you any proof that it doesn't?

No, I don't. But I believe that the proof requirement should be on the side of added expense, which is DRM. There are companies like Paradox that aren't imaginary, and appear to be making money without DRM. There are also real DRM-related problems with sales, with Spore being a big, but not the only example. (Sorry to use common sense, this probably won't fly with a suit, as you noticed yourself. )

[wodan11]

No, I don't. But I believe that the proof requirement should be on the side of added expense, which is DRM. There are companies like Paradox that aren't imaginary, and appear to be making money without DRM.

That's a false target. Clearly, the goal isn't simply to "make money". Obviously, if they only made $0.01 they would meet your criteria of "making money" but that would be a failed business. You have to show the shareholders a profit, or they will remove their capital investment and go elsewhere. Furthermore, profit is where business expansion and the ability to meet rising and unforseen costs comes from.

There are also real DRM-related problems with sales, with Spore being a big, but not the only example. (Sorry to use common sense, this probably won't fly with a suit, as you noticed yourself. )

You're saying that Spore's (or anyone's) implementation of DRM may have a negative impact on sales?

The converse is true as well, the lack of DRM may have a negative impact on sales.

[Modo44]

That's a false target. Clearly, the goal isn't simply to "make money". Obviously, if they only made $0.01 they would meet your criteria of "making money" but that would be a failed business. You have to show the shareholders a profit, or they will remove their capital investment and go elsewhere. Furthermore, profit is where business expansion and the ability to meet rising and unforseen costs comes from.

So you need to prove that the additional cost of DRM is worth it. Unfortunately the real data is probably only with the suits, and I wouldn't take their word for it...

You're saying that Spore's (or anyone's) implementation of DRM may have a negative impact on sales?

It was big enough to make news outside of game sites, so yeah, I think it was a real problem.

[wodan11]

So you need to prove that the additional cost of DRM is worth it. Unfortunately the real data is probably only with the suits, and I wouldn't take their word for it...

Why do *I* need to prove it? I'm talking about a possible DRM using chips. You seem to keep trying to move it to a discussion of all DRM compared to free distribution.

As for your topic:
-- As a consumer, I very much would like free distribution.
-- Clearly, DRM has some result of increased sales income, because companies keep incurring the expense of it, which has a real $ cost. So, the increased sales must be greater than the cost, or else they wouldn't do it.

As for my topic:
-- I've said quite a few things you haven't seemed to respond to (since your responses seemed to be about the more general topic instead of about what I had to say). So I'll leave it about that until/unless you'd like to talk about it.