Macintosh Forums

[Drake Tungsten]

What are "incompatible drivers"? Oh yeah, that's one of those technical problems they have on Windows boxes that us Mac users just don't have to worry about. True plug-n-play sure is nice....

Joking aside, I don't really understand why you are so set on trashing the Mac platform. Most of the points you bring up are correct (ie more software and faster processors) but I don't think you really understand why Mac users prefer the Macintosh. I have no problem spending extra money to get the "Porsche" of computers. I don't play many PC games (I'm a console gamer) so the Mac has all the software that I need. It also has a much better GUI, IMHO, and is definitely much easier and less confusing to use. You seem to know a lot about computers, so ease of use may not matter to you, but most folks aren't comp sci majors and just want their computers to do what they want, when they want. Windows is still light years behind the Mac in consumer friendliness and I think this is the main reason people buy the Mac. That, and an undying hatred for Microsoft, but I'll leave that for another thread...

[Asher]

Originally posted by bradman
So what you are saying is that there aren't any PC games that bring your CPU to its knees? The funny thing about that is that I don't have that problem either on my DP 800 with a GeForce 3.

I still cannot run Max Payne at the max resolution because of restrictions with my system (CPU, RAM too slow).
However, it does take way, way too long to make MPEG-4 movies.

However, I'll bite. What makes DX fullscreen better on the PC than the Mac? One thing I've noticed is that most PC games never gamma fade before the res switch so you get a little video noise. The Mac fullscreen APIs let you do this easily. It's one of those small aesthetic details that I like.

What's wrong with instant switching?
I don't really care if it fades and looks nice, because my Monitor flickers and snaps anyway.

I'm not sure I understand. When we port a D3D game, we use our own D3D library that we've written. It's not an issue for us as long as the card supports it. And ATi and NVidia cards use the same hardware on Mac and PC now. We're professional game developers, not a bunch of high school hackers in a garage.

You're telling me you can port a DirectX 8.1 game to Mac with ease?
I wasn't aware that was possible, let alone easy?
If so, someone should try to port Max Payne.

I also find it funny that someone can be so intolerant of other people's choices. I'm not advocating that everyone use a Mac, only that there are valid reasons why someone would. You seem to think that only a fool would buy a Mac simply because you would not. This is a textbook definition of intolerance. I hope for your sake that it only extends as far as computer preferences.

I wouldn't mind at all if those same Mac users don't call the Mac the "superior" platform (see above) and all that.
The hardware is lacking, and until now the OS was just pathetic.
Couple that with very limited selection and overpriced systems and you've got yourself a pretty weak system.

And I must admit, the Apple marketing bullsh*t really gets to me too. That's where my dislike for Macs comes from, mostly.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
What are "incompatible drivers"? Oh yeah, that's one of those technical problems they have on Windows boxes that us Mac users just don't have to worry about. True plug-n-play sure is nice....

You try running extensions from OS 8 on OS X and tell me how well it works.

Joking aside, I don't really understand why you are so set on trashing the Mac platform. Most of the points you bring up are correct (ie more software and faster processors) but I don't think you really understand why Mac users prefer the Macintosh. I have no problem spending extra money to get the "Porsche" of computers.

You just said the PC was faster, and you called the Mac the "Porsche" of computers?
The Mac is more like those Hybrid cars.
More efficient, more money, slower.

I don't play many PC games (I'm a console gamer) so the Mac has all the software that I need. It also has a much better GUI, IMHO, and is definitely much easier and less confusing to use.

You should try playing with some of the XML-based themes in Windows XP. Can pretty much completely change your interface to what you want.

You seem to know a lot about computers, so ease of use may not matter to you, but most folks aren't comp sci majors and just want their computers to do what they want, when they want. Windows is still light years behind the Mac in consumer friendliness and I think this is the main reason people buy the Mac.

How do you figure?
Have you seen how easy Windows XP is?
It's frustratingly easy that most users need to turn off lots of the "friendly" features because they're insulting.

I'd like to hear some examples of how the Mac is easier to use than the PC is.

[Drake Tungsten]

You just said the PC was faster, and you called the Mac the "Porsche" of computers?

The Porsche isn't one of the best cars in the world just because it has a big engine. It is an example of the all-around emphasis on quality design that Apple also brings to its products, which includes the asthetic concerns you seem so opposed to.

I'd like to hear some examples of how the Mac is easier to use than the PC is.

No product activation! Check and mate....

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
No product activation! Check and mate....

Have you ever done product activation?
It's the most painless thing...really.
Takes 5 seconds to do and involves clicking 'Next' a few times.

Not to mention most users won't deal with it because it'll come pre-installed on their next computers.

[Drake Tungsten]

Who cares if it's an easy process? It shouldn't be in the OS at all and is just another attempt by Microsoft to monitor and abuse its customers. You can't even install XP on more than one machine without paying more money, which is bullsh*t. I'll keep OS X, thank you very much. At least Apple doesn't require me to get permission to use an OS I already payed for.

[monolith94]

When I use a pc, I feel like I'm using something that hates me and wants to get rid of me as soon as possible. When i use a mac, it's like going to the friendly grandma's who makes cookies, where all the other cool kids hang out too.

[Wiglaf]

You can get a $200 computer to do essays, internet browsing, and mild game playing.

You can do all of that and more on a PC, except you can also play a helluva lot more games with more speed and less money (in general).

you aren't listening to my stability arguement. a $200 PC would break four or five times a day.

also, you can't play ANY games on a $200 PC, or most games on a $1000 PC. In fact, the only way to play most stuff out there would be the high end route, and that's extremely expensive, more so than even a G4.

Most computers don't die after 2 years (I've never had a PC die that was younger than 6 -- and that 6 was a Gateway )
If you know what you're doing when you buy a PC, you can get a fast, stable, cheap, and reliable machine for quite a bit less than you could get out of a Mac.
As a bonus, you can upgrade more things, save money in the longrun

if you know what you're doing? according to you, that means not buying a compaq, running at the sight of a new gateway, staying away from windows 98/ME, and/or building your own from the ground up with high quality internet ordered parts...the list is added to almost every other day now.

macs - you buy one for $999 with OSX and you're set in terms of stability. there's nothing really to worry about: who to buy from, what OS to install. and a cheap mac is actually as rock solid as the more expensive G4s - one of those $899 uber cheap P4s from dell would have a tough time in that regard...

pcs - you buy one for $2000 with the only reasonable warranty, 256M of RAM (the only amount XP can go on while running most other programs), a spyware OS, and a 60 GB HD (oh I mean 50gigs - XP tends to be quite hefty as well).

$2000 top of the line, somewhat stable PC / $999 lowend iMac with much more solid hardware and software. GRANTED, macs don't get nearly as many products as PC users get...but for essays, internet browsing, stability, and several awesome games, apples are perfect. No, a $200 PC can't run Unreal Tournament and avoid the blue screen for two months.

I find it funny how somebody who clearly knows what they're talking about can support the platform.
Or do you just do it because that's where your money comes from?

sure you've never said anything about a PC career on these boards?

[Smash]

if I could get a mac at those prices there would be no problem.I got a "loaded" blue and white g3 for just over 5k(Canadian) 3 years ago.The bare bones unit was just over 3k.....NO MONITOR.

I live in one of largest cities in Canada.There is not one retail outlet carrying mac stuff on their shelves right now.All are "registered outlets" and you have to pre order and wait months for anything.Might as well go online

The platform is great.I mean its as easy to use as an old Nintendo.Availabilty and software is not so great.

truth alert
Macs do crash


I have the 8.6 update d/led.Gave me a good excuse to get a download manager....I wait and see if it will be of any use to install.

Sounds like things are going very well at Westlake.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
you aren't listening to my stability arguement. a $200 PC would break four or five times a day.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or ignorance.

also, you can't play ANY games on a $200 PC, or most games on a $1000 PC. In fact, the only way to play most stuff out there would be the high end route, and that's extremely expensive, more so than even a G4.

You could most certainly play SMAC (you love it so much, don't you?) on it.
You can get a Duron 700MHz for something like $50 now alone!

if you know what you're doing? according to you, that means not buying a compaq, running at the sight of a new gateway, staying away from windows 98/ME, and/or building your own from the ground up with high quality internet ordered parts...the list is added to almost every other day now.

Precisely!
You stay away from CRAP choices and buy from the GOOD ones.
You don't even have a choice with your Macs: Apple makes crappy G4 cube cases that crack, you can't go buy from another vendor now can you?
And you don't need to build computers from internet ordered parts, there are tons of component stores in most cities.

macs - you buy one for $999 with OSX and you're set in terms of stability. there's nothing really to worry about: who to buy from, what OS to install. and a cheap mac is actually as rock solid as the more expensive G4s - one of those $899 uber cheap P4s from dell would have a tough time in that regard...

PCs - you buy one for $998 (or some figure LESS than that) with WinXP and you're set in terms of stability.
I'm glad you don't need to "worry" about who to buy from, that's such a relief!
And no, one of those uber cheap P4s would not have a tough time in that regard.
Dell uses top notch components on all machines, whether you get the fastest of those top notch components is entirely dependent on how much you want to spend.

pcs - you buy one for $2000 with the only reasonable warranty, 256M of RAM (the only amount XP can go on while running most other programs), a spyware OS, and a 60 GB HD (oh I mean 50gigs - XP tends to be quite hefty as well).

LOL!
You just bought a $999 Mac and a $2000 PC?
PCs are CHEAPER 90% of the time.
You don't have a spyware OS (Don't you even START that stuff again, XP is not spyware in any way by the definition of spyware). XP is 1GB with a 'Professional' full install, that's not much different from OS X.

I like how you try to bend the truth with everything you say. Unfortunately for you I'm not the usual Mac user who will accept it and go "Gosh darnit, I'm glad I spent $3500 on my 867MHz G4!".

$2000 top of the line, somewhat stable PC / $999 lowend iMac with much more solid hardware and software. GRANTED, macs don't get nearly as many products as PC users get...but for essays, internet browsing, stability, and several awesome games, apples are perfect. No, a $200 PC can't run Unreal Tournament and avoid the blue screen for two months.

A $200 Mac can't run Unreal Tournament either.
What is your point?
A $999 PC can run Unreal Tournament and even Max Payne. Something that Mac cannot.

sure you've never said anything about a PC career on these boards?

I don't make any money off of PCs (currently), people just ship me free hardware to review.

[Wiglaf]

smash -

I run OS8.6, not the best apple has done by any means, and I get about one crash a month now that I've cleared out some problem files.

on the PC front, I've tried out WinME and Win98...two crashes a week would be a fair number from my experiance. win2000 and winXP are improved I'm sure, but according to Time magazine 3-10 days is the max you can hope to last even on those. and the spyware aspect of XP isn't the most appealing.

ash, if you've really been running for months on end with no reboots, you're either lying or doing something the average user wouldn't know how to do. browse some other forums, the crash rate is much higher on their machines for some reason.

[Asher]

Re: smash -

Originally posted by Wiglaf
and the spyware aspect of XP isn't the most appealing.

I'm going to ask you not to comment on that any more, because you really have no clue how it works and are only contributing to the already widespread assumption that it is spyware. It is not. Go research it.

ash, if you've really been running for months on end with no reboots, you're either lying or doing something the average user wouldn't know how to do. browse some other forums, the crash rate is much higher on their machines for some reason.

I don't run it for months on end, I never said I did.
I have to boot into Linux about every other day, otherwise it would have one helluva uptime.

However, Windows 2000 does run for a long, long time before a reboot.
There are servers with year or more uptime on netcraft (http://www.netcraft.com/ )

[Wiglaf]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or ignorance.

a $200 PC would be useful for nothing...that's pretty obvious...that'd be about a 133 MHz P1 or something with no graphics card, sound card, monitor, modem, RAM, anything...

Precisely!
You stay away from CRAP choices and buy from the GOOD ones.
You don't even have a choice with your Macs: Apple makes crappy G4 cube cases that crack, you can't go buy from another vendor now can you?
And you don't need to build computers from internet ordered parts, there are tons of component stores in most cities.

apple's G4 cube cases crack for no reason at all? weird.

PCs - you buy one for $998 (or some figure LESS than that) with WinXP and you're set in terms of stability.
I'm glad you don't need to "worry" about who to buy from, that's such a relief!
And no, one of those uber cheap P4s would not have a tough time in that regard.
Dell uses top notch components on all machines, whether you get the fastest of those top notch components is entirely dependent on how much you want to spend.

first off, WinXP doesn't sound too stable from the articles I've read. secondly, getting a $1000 computer to run XP at an optimal rate would be very difficult, assuming you're buying from Dell.

you don't have a spyware OS (Don't you even START that stuff again, XP is not spyware in any way by the definition of spyware).

what's the whole registration system for? they really like checking in with their users I guess. spyware, maybe not. sure isn't a good thing for us though.

A $200 Mac can't run Unreal Tournament either.
What is your point?

you seemed to be comparing an imac to a $200 PC earlier, which is obviously flawed. the latter wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING nowadays. For $599 more you get a much more capable and stable iMac.

A $999 PC can run Unreal Tournament and even Max Payne. Something that Mac cannot.

$999? Max Payne? No. try setting that up on the wonderful Dell.com, see what you get. Add $600 or $700 and it might come out right. not everyone buys a computer for max payne, by the way...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
a $200 PC would be useful for nothing...that's pretty obvious...that'd be about a 133 MHz P1 or something with no graphics card, sound card, monitor, modem, RAM, anything...

LOL!
You can get a Duron 600MHz for $27 alone. (www.pricewatch.com)
128MB RAM is ~$10 now
Motherboard for the Duron: $38
Power supply for Duron: $8
Fan: $1-2
etc.
As you can see, you can get a pretty speedy PC for $200.
Wouldn't want to, but you could.

first off, WinXP doesn't sound too stable from the articles I've read. secondly, getting a $1000 computer to run XP at an optimal rate would be very difficult, assuming you're buying from Dell.

Any PC > 300MHz will run Windows XP perfectly fine.
And which article says WinXP isn't stable?

what's the whole registration system for? they really like checking in with their users I guess. spyware, maybe not. sure isn't a good thing for us though.

Registration is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL.
Activation is "necessary" for home users, and involves taking a snapshot of your hardware so they can tell if you install the OS on other computers (when you buy the OS, the license is for one computer, not as many as you want).
That is in no way spyware.
First, the 10 hardware devices it looks at are stored in a hash value, and then encrypted.
What people see when looking at the file is a bunch of seemingly random numbers. Even when decrypted, you'd have a really hard time getting to know what it meant.
"Spyware" monitors what you do and "phones home".
Windows XP never "phones home" except for the activation part during install, and it makes it very clear that it's doing so.

you seemed to be comparing an imac to a $200 PC earlier, which is obviously flawed. the latter wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING nowadays. For $599 more you get a much more capable and stable iMac.

See my comment on what you can get for $200.

$999? Max Payne? No. try setting that up on the wonderful Dell.com, see what you get. Add $600 or $700 and it might come out right. not everyone buys a computer for max payne, by the way...

If you would bother to check the sysreqs for Max Payne, and compare that to what you can build on the Dell site for cheap.
Of course not everybody buys for Max Payne.
But again: You don't need an iMac to surf the net or use word processing (you make it sound like it's okay because it CAN do that). You can do all of that on a PC, PLUS play games like Max Payne...

[illiria]

Re: Crash Rate

my iBook has not crashed in the last 2 months, always put to sleep between. I do internet´, office and games with it so that should be fairly unstable.

What you need to do is quite easy: get rid of those extensions you dont need, as few 3rd party as possible and then it is all up to apps. OK, and if you go OSX then you are fine (if you can put the machine to sleep.)

My G4 has crashed quite often yesterday, but that was somehow due to playing more than 3 quicktime 5 movies in IE5 (after the service release.. dont know whats going on there). But if you dont do anything fancy, a mac should NOT crahs more than once a month (or you just reboot it because you feel like it).