Macintosh Forums

[Asher]

They're widely purchased for servers (granted, dual or 4-way 1.2GHz P3s are more common right now) and for workstations.

The cost of an additional processor doesn't meet the performance increase on any system. So for home users who already have a 2GHz CPU, you don't need the extra juice out of another processor.

obviously we aren't going by the 'top available speeds' then.

You're right, they should do 8-way P4 Xeons vs. the dual G4.

[Wiglaf]

nope, just the two most powerful home desktop systems from each side would do.

(P4 2.0 GHz/dual 800 MHz G4)

[Asher]

Wiglaf...I know many people with dual processor Athlon MPs or with P4 Xeons.

You can get them for home, it's just that they don't sell them in the store because not enough people are stupid enough to buy it for the average home user (this is probably why Apple found such a large market for it. )

The only reason they offered dual G4 systems for the home is because a single G4 is actually pathetically weak without Altivec. The only way to stay reasonably competitive is to put 2 CPUs inside one home box...

[Wiglaf]

The only way to stay reasonably competitive is to put 2 CPUs inside one home box...

naturally, then, a fair test would remove the only thing that keeps apple in the game and puts the now mid-ranged system up against the fastest commercially available PC?

I don't know anyone who has more than one P4. They aren't sold at any local or internet stores for home use. OTOH, if you find a place that sells mac hardware, you'll find tons of dual G4 ads, sales, etc.

the fastest desktop mac is a dual 800MHz. the fastest desktop PC is a P4 2.0 GHz. Go for it.

[Asher]

Wiglaf, I think what we have to do is agree to disagree.

Personally, I think it's stupid to compare a dual G4 to a single P4 because Apple HAS to do it to have any semblence of real speed.

I compare 1 on 1, or 2 on 2, since the cost of the chips are about equal. You go by what most people are buying.

Most people are buying single G4s, not dual G4s. By the same token, most PC people are buying single P4s, not dual G4s.

But unlike Apple, the PC seperates its "mainstream desktop" and its "workstation" markets.

You'd never need to have a dual CPU "mainstream desktop". It's for workstation-like applications or for high-end gaming. And yes, this is what both the dual G4 and dual P4 fall under.

The only difference is no major PC makers actively market the dual processor system for the desktop because it's rather pointless for most of the users.

But if you're going to run speed tests...by all means, dual G4 vs. dual P4, or G4 vs P4. You just want to slant the test so the G4 might win by some more.

[Wiglaf]

for such a "slow ass" processor, a single G4 held up quite well when compared with a "top of the line" P4, didn't it? so I guess that's why you don't post any benchmarks when the mac's speed is doubled.

apple does separate its workstation/server market. desktops are advertised on a completely different section of their site, and each gets a very direct explanation from almost all certified retailers when I checked them out. whether or not the home user gets a huge amount of power out of their mac isn't apple's fault.

really, the speed isn't the issue here.

[King_Of_Hearts]

G5

I am sort of new to this forum but the discussion mac vs. PeeCee is for me well known and quite entertaining.... my comments to Asher r that if u wanna discuss something u should do some good research and u would find out that Mhz has nothing to do with speed comparing a 867 Mhz G4 with a 1,7 Ghz will not do the trick... why?? because both r total different things it is like comparing apples with a pears.... wich tastes better? just a matter of taste... I will not state here that PeeCee users r ignorant, what I do state is that the majority of the PeeCee user do not even know what a Mac is unless they would visit a website like this one. My advise: play around on a mac and then tell me what sucks about it... I have experience with both and I dislike the fact that it is much eassier to get software and/or games on a Mac... but in time mac catched up with that and it isnt as bad as it was (although we r still not there) the price difference u discribe between PeeCee and Mac is simply because of the fact that a PeeCee is a product made by MANY compagnies while Mac has a few others wich have close ties with Apple and there a PeeCee is sold more then a mac it is more then logic that they can sell it for less...

Oh and Bradman do u know if they have plans in the future to import a beautifull game like FIFA 2002 to the mac????

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
for such a "slow ass" processor, a single G4 held up quite well when compared with a "top of the line" P4, didn't it? so I guess that's why you don't post any benchmarks when the mac's speed is doubled.

apple does separate its workstation/server market. desktops are advertised on a completely different section of their site, and each gets a very direct explanation from almost all certified retailers when I checked them out. whether or not the home user gets a huge amount of power out of their mac isn't apple's fault.

really, the speed isn't the issue here.

I agree, the G4 did pretty well in Photoshop. One of the only apps in existence using Altivec and also one native to the Mac. But the P4 still beat it in 4/5 tests...

my comments to Asher r that if u wanna discuss something u should do some good research and u would find out that Mhz has nothing to do with speed comparing a 867 Mhz G4 with a 1,7 Ghz will not do the trick...

I appreciate your stunning insight, but if you cared to look at the thread you'd see that I never equated raw MHz to speed. That's not the issue.

The issue is without Altivec the G4 is pitifully slow. In fact, it performs about the same clock for clock w/o altivec as an Athlon. And when the speeds max out at 867MHz, that's not a GoodThing^TM.

MHz is not speed. Speed is determined by IPC x MHz. The G4 has a shorter pipeline (It's now at 7 stages), while the Athlon and Pentium III have a 10-stage. That means the G4 does slightly more per clock than a Pentium III or Athlon. A Pentium 4, however, has 18-20 stages (depending on what it's doing), which is why it's MHz rating is so very high. Some parts of the chip are double pumped (ie, a 2GHz chip has some parts running at 4GHz) so the performance hit per clock isn't as great as it could be.

the majority of the PeeCee user do not even know what a Mac is unless they would visit a website like this one.

I think it's fairly safe to say that comment is way off the mark. Everyone knows what a Mac is (or nearly everyone)

My advise: play around on a mac and then tell me what sucks about it...

Did you read any of this thread?

the price difference u discribe between PeeCee and Mac is simply because of the fact that a PeeCee is a product made by MANY compagnies while Mac has a few others wich have close ties with Apple and there a PeeCee is sold more then a mac it is more then logic that they can sell it for less...

Precisely. When you've got one vendor you've got skyhigh prices. That's also been stated in this thread...

[King_Of_Hearts]

Well atleast now I know what the thread is about .... I must add though that I think u give crappy arguments....

read a little bit more about macs and become wiser

[Asher]

Whatever, man.

I know more about Macs than the average Mac user.

Such is life in computer science.

And I don't really care if you think I give crappy arguments, I'm not trying to sway anyone. I don't really care what the hell you waste your money on, I was just attacked for calling it the kiddie table so I responded to why I said it.

[King_Of_Hearts]

kiddie table hey???? u r doing computer science??? such a shame.... listen I am not trying to say that ur stupid or ignorant because I do not know u. and u might have some good arguments but I only didnt heard them on the other hand I heard some very good arguments why it isnt a good computer and things like that u can not deny... and if u wnt to spend your money on PeeCee's then go ahead, u must have a good reason why u r throwing away your money anyway I am not trying to throw with dirt just wanted to give my opinion.

oh yeah I am a mac user for over a year now and I LOVE IT!!!! my computer is on for months without having to re-boot without having to do any abra ca dabra I do not have that many games but they will come in time and as for support? well take a look at bradman as fast as he is thats how fast apple support is.

Apple THINK DIFFERENT

[Wiglaf]

I agree, the G4 did pretty well in Photoshop. One of the only apps in existence using Altivec and also one native to the Mac. But the P4 still beat it in 4/5 tests...

that's the fastest P4 processor available compared to a mid ranged G4. interesting that the mac put up such a fight..

again, the server/workstation market is separate on the mac side. the dual G4 is meant for home use, dual P4s are not. so, when doing the following test:

P4 1.8 Ghz vs 837 (or something) G4

you really aren't using the two fastest home computers on each side. that's be more like:

P4 2.0 GHz vs dual 800 MHz G4

of course, since the mac would perform twice as fast and as a result would crush the PC to no end, you won't find that scenario on any techtv benchmarks.

once again, speed isn't the issue here until you can give me a dual G4 vs 2.0 P4 benchmark that shows apple slacking.

[Asher]

Originally posted by King_Of_Hearts
kiddie table hey???? u r doing computer science??? such a shame.... listen I am not trying to say that ur stupid or ignorant because I do not know u. and u might have some good arguments but I only didnt heard them on the other hand I heard some very good arguments why it isnt a good computer and things like that u can not deny... and if u wnt to spend your money on PeeCee's then go ahead, u must have a good reason why u r throwing away your money anyway I am not trying to throw with dirt just wanted to give my opinion.

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't exactly find your "arguments" moving whatsoever. They basically consisted of "hey it works so its fine".

oh yeah I am a mac user for over a year now and I LOVE IT!!!! my computer is on for months without having to re-boot without having to do any abra ca dabra I do not have that many games but they will come in time and as for support? well take a look at bradman as fast as he is thats how fast apple support is.

Just make sure you don't install iTunes 2. There was a chance that it would wipe your your ENTIRE hard drive!
That's how good Apple is.
To their credit, they pulled the install file later that day and fixed it to make 2.0.1, but some damage had already been done to qiute a few people.

of course, since the mac would perform twice as fast and as a result would crush the PC to no end, you won't find that scenario on any techtv benchmarks.

Actually, no...dual processor most certainly does not double the speed. The speed increase is usually about 20% in most apps (including Photoshop). When doing something like 3DStudio it can be as much as 80%, though.

And you really don't seem to get it: Why compare a dual G4 to a single P4 when you can also build dual P4 systems?

It's a blatantly obviously attempt to make the Mac look faster by pitting it up against something that it still wouldn't beat in most apps (non-Altivec).

[frunobulax]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher
My point is Photoshop is the only app that consistently ran faster on the G4 rather than the PC.

Asher, you don't know jack **** ! Try Apps. outside of kindergarten, like professional Avid video editing systems or ProTools TDM audio editing systems, which I've worked with for over 5 years. They consistently run faster and are far more stable on Macs - I do this for a living buddy, so learn some facts before you shoot off....

[Asher]

Originally posted by frunobulax
Asher, you don't know jack **** ! Try Apps. outside of kindergarten, like professional Avid video editing systems or ProTools TDM audio editing systems, which I've worked with for over 5 years. They consistently run faster and are far more stable on Macs - I do this for a living buddy, so learn some facts before you shoot off....

Great -- where can I see some benchmarks?

Edit: I just did some research about this ProTools application: It, too, is one of those products developed for the Mac and hastily ported to the PC so they can make more money off of it. The PC version lacks lots of stuff. I wouldn't be too surprised if it did run natively a bit faster on the Mac. But it could run just as fast if not faster if ported properly to the PC. And apparently it doesn't even use the P4's SSE2 (Which is essentially Altivec). *yawn*

I'd be surprised if it used SSE1.