On the Utility and Use of Marines

[Catt]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
I can see 3 civs with marines fighting 1 with tanks right now [ . . . ] The marine actually has a use when you don't have oil.

Originally posted by notyoueither
The biggest effect of Marines in MP...

You have how many important coastal cities? 8 did you say?

OK. The 'possibility' that there are 8 Marines in a Transport floating around out there will tie down how many units?

Aye, there's the rub. (Zachriel will correct my misquote ). I won't get much of a chance to play MP, but the MP player who understands marines will shock those who have never used nor defended against a marine. How many of us keep at least 3 infantry fortified in every coastal city, and at least 5 after our challenger has marines and a navy? At least 3 mechanized infantry? Anyone? And a solid naval picket to see the invasion coming?

NYE (among others) will spend some time in the "classroom," "tutoring" others on the value of marines.

Originally posted by Zachriel
The lesson? Use massive bombardment to prepare the strike zone. If you send Marines in without shore bombardment, you are sending good soldiers to die needlessly.

Zachriel states, with absolute clarity, the preferred invasion method. Attacking without a definite "softening up" from appropriate naval bombardment results in needless losses -- you've doomed worthy marines. Soften your target before taking it -- but take it, and take it with speed - seizing two or three cities at once (without forewarning - other than a declaration of war before entring enemy territory) can significantly alter the balance of power -- which is (in Civ 3) the duty of marines.

Catt

[King of Rasslin]

Bombardment is pitifully weak. And in multiplayer, you have to worry about the other guys navy. He will see you coming for a few turns, and will have time to ready the defence of his cities. And what about him bombarding your transports? He will then send in his navy and crush you. The key to success is speed here.

However, you can see an invasion a mile away if you just have a single submarine that finds the transports moving. It is just too easy to stop marines. Making 2 loaded carriers to bombard is just too expensive.

[Theseus]

I think in MP we'll see massive invasion forces that dwarf any contemplated here.

Surprise attack:
20 Battleships
4-6 Destroyers looking for Subs
6-8 Carriers, each with 1 JF and 3 Bombers
Redundancy:
16 Marines for a direct attack
16 Infantry and 32 Tanks for a Hill landing

And vice versa: Homeland defense will be a much more critical issue...

Back OT: I still haven't used Marines in a meaningful way.

But I will. Semper Fi.

[Catt]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Bombardment is pitifully weak. And in multiplayer, you have to worry about the other guys navy. He will see you coming for a few turns, and will have time to ready the defence of his cities. And what about him bombarding your transports? He will then send in his navy and crush you. The key to success is speed here.

However, you can see an invasion a mile away if you just have a single submarine that finds the transports moving. It is just too easy to stop marines. Making 2 loaded carriers to bombard is just too expensive.

Don't all your points apply to intercontinental invasions in general? How, in addressing your points above, is an invasion force with a marine component to it at any disadvantage to an invasion force without a marine component?
Catt

[King of Rasslin]

Marines take up space where tanks should be. And they cost maintenance. I would rather have tanks, for obvious reasons.

[Gen.Dragolen]

King, but what do you do when the CC only has one decent place for you to land troops, and they happen to be in the way: tanks can't attack off the ship, regardless of the DD models you saw on D-Day, 06 June 1944.

Like Vel keeps pointing out: situation drives your tactics. If the AI had a coastal city on an important resource I didn't want him/her to have, in go the marines. Hopefullly with a heavy bombardment by battleships to smooth the beach defenses out a bit...


D.

[Barfus]

good suggestions everyone.....so how does anyone who uses marines go about using them when the enemy has mech inf and tanks, or god forbid, modern armor......on their side. in my current situation, ive waited till late in the game to do any serious invasions, and now eveyone has militaries about a third of mine, and id have to leave some troops at home to defend against neighbors...

[Theseus]

From the CFC chat on 10/4:

[18:49] Will armies of marines/berserks get
amphibious ability in PTW?
[18:50] <+Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS> Dave: Yes if the army
consists solely of Marines or Berserks.
[18:50] sweet
[18:50] <+Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS> Armies now take on the abilities of the units they are made up of but only if it is
made up of only 1 type of unit
____________

Cool... could be unbelievably awesome for Paras!!

[Jaybe]

If you have marines available in your transports, it is amazing how much use you can get out of them in conjunction with bombardment.

In other words, I have just concluded a game (vs. Mech Inf defenders) where I really appreciated having them, and regretted NOT having them in a couple of instances. I had transports with 6 marines and a couple support, and I had transports which always had a marine or two onboard should opportunity knock. Few transports did NOT have any marines with them. Sometimes there were preplanned missions, but often they were missions of opportunity.

[dworkin]

I use marines when speed is of the essence. With my crabby subjects whining how Joey has been sent off to die I need to achieve my objectives NOW!

So in go the marines to take some pile of rubble that AI calls a city. Well, it's rubble after battlefleet is through with it.

Marines are not affected by city bonuses if your fleet and air wing leave "no stone standing upon another".

[Admiral PJ]

Marines do seem a bit weak, though they are useful for harranging the enemys coasts(especially the small remote coastal cities)

The best use for them is if you don't have any oil, then they are your best attack unit (you need rubber of course).
This might happen more in multiplayer human games.

They ought to have a higher defence of 10/12 or be much cheaper.
They could be made as an all terrain as road unit, as marines are known for going on rough terrain.
They could also have a bombard ability to recreate the use of anti tank rockets and grenades (marines have light artilery normally anyhow), this would also allowthem to have artillery defence.

They have a Zone of control too, which can be pretty useful .. I've used this many times.

[Jaybe]

PJ, if you made those suggested editor changes then Marines are all you would see the AI produce.

Is that what you want?
(I considered doing it myself)

[Theseus]

I haven;t used Marines much myself (pains me to say that, being a leatherneck myself)... but Marine Armies??!!

Still my beating heart.

Naval picket lines just got waaaay more important. This will be major in MP... I hope Soren got a little pumped about this for the AI civs (especially the Vikings, but really every one once Amphib War has been researched).

[Gen.Dragolen]

Theseus,

Wait for it...
Alll Right, ladies, lock and load. Time to earn our pay and make the poor bastards piss their pants.

This should be an absolute howl when we can play head to head.

Imagine having two marine armies riding ashore with a fist full of battle ships, and carrier based bombers pasting the target city. Not even Mech Inf. would survive the assault...

And having Vikings doing the same ? If they wanted to increase the carnage, this will do it. The only thing is that the Vikings will have to have their transports look like longboats, or it just won't work.

"A viking we will a viking we will go... nice city. I'll take it..."

D.

[Meshelic]

Marines can take out infantry like nothing, but their cost is too high for their usefulness (especially in the era of tanks) and they are a dead end research thread. Too bad they couldn't have changed it to actually make a difference