MOD: Patch suggestion MOD

[player1]

Originally posted by lockstep
IMO, this is a very big change in gameplay with mixed effects. I don't like the idea.

Yes, it is a big change.
But maybe not too bit change.

Originally posted by lockstep So making the Jaguar Warrior to Swordsman upgrade tactic impossible (as until v1.33 of your mod) is a good compromise. (BTW, when playing as the Zulus and having no horses, I also lose my own mobile unit at some point. Does that mean Impis should upgrade to Horsemen too?)

But you lose Impis after Gunpowder.
That's pretty late in game.
And even then, it's possibile that you also have no Saltpeter.

And some people realy like "pay 40gp, get upgraded unit" tactic.
You know, that could benefit Aztecs too.
Converting all those Jaguars to Horsemen (if not to Swordsmen).

Originally posted by lockstep Skipping parts of the upgrade chain for a UU is one thing, entirely changing a UU's upgrade chain is another thing. And what if I'd like to build jaguar warriors (cheaper) and horsemen (more powerful on the attack, and still mobile) at the same time? What if I'd like to build jaguar warriors in the early middle age (which is impossible in v1.34 of your mod because Horseback Riding is needed for era advancement)?

Hmm...
You could just keep several weak cities unconnected with Horses.
Your more powerfull cities would probably not need such thing since they would be capable of building highly advanced units anyway. (and there is always pillaging Explorer)

Jaguars are just much more importatnt in ancient era then in medivial anyway.


P.S.
Somehow if you look more closely Jaguar Warriors are just better Chariots.
Cheaper and can go through Mountains and Jungles.


P.P.S.
What if I want to build Mounted Warriors after I get Chivarly?
Much cheaper and still with good attack.
Pretty similar probelm.

Unfortunately you can't get both "pay gold for upgrade" tactic and "build cheap unit" tactic with same unit.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by player1
Hmm...
You could just keep several weak cities unconnected with Horses.
Your more powerfull cities would probably not need such thing since they would be capable of building highly advanced units anyway. (and there is always pillaging Explorer)

If you think this is a valid tactic, then I suggest to make jaguar warriors upgrade to swordsmen (like in vanilla civ3) and disconnect some of your 'weak' cities from iron. (And don't forget that these cities will lack luxury ressources too, and therefore will need temples at higher difficulty levels to quell unhappiness).

Jaguars are just much more importatnt in ancient era then in medivial anyway.

Some expert players, including Vel, do think they are still very useful in the middle age.

Somehow if you look more closely Jaguar Warriors are just better Chariots.
Cheaper and can go through Mountains and Jungles.

They are better chariots AND warriors. And if upgrading them to horsemen OR swordsmen makes sense, I'd rather stick with the solution of vanilla Civ3. Again, I think your original solution (make them upgrade to riflemen) was a better one.

[player1]

Originally posted by lockstep
They are better chariots AND warriors. And if upgrading them to horsemen OR swordsmen makes sense, I'd rather stick with the solution of vanilla Civ3. Again, I think your original solution (make them upgrade to riflemen) was a better one.

On the other hand Jaguar to Horsemen just feels better then Jaguar to Swordsmen.

You could actuly use Swordsmen (city taker) & Jaguar (guerrila)combo for a long time without needless micromanagemnt.

After that, you'll upgrade your Jaguars to better Horsmen, and then make some new Jaguars with several specialized cities.

P.S.
I didn't liked original solution, since it too much unnatural when Aztecs don't have Horses.

P.P.S.
On the other hand, unablity to upgrade Jaguars the way as with other civ's Warriors is also something lacking.

P.P.P.S
I see Jaguar to Horsemen as best "in-the-minddle" solution.
I think on average it gives best results.

You can use them for a long time with best efficiency (together with Swordsmen which is essentail for city taking).

And in later time, you could always make several specilizaed training camps.

[lockstep]

I understand that you don't like 'unnatural' upgrade paths, but for me 'specialiced' cities (unconnected to ressources on purpose) are unnatural, too.

Anyhow, it is very likely that Jaguar Warriors will upgrade to the new Medieval Infantry in PtW - either via Swordsmen or directly (skipping Swordsmen). And as this is a good solution (IMO), there'll be no need to change it in the PtW version of your mod.

[player1]

maybe

We'll see.

[player1]

By the way, as far as I know, M. Swordsmen stats are 4/2/1/cost 40, needs Iron (and needed tech. unknown).

So presonnaly, I would leave them with thse stats in PtW version of this MOD too.

[player1]

NEWS ITEM:

This MOD has got its own Forum.
All thanks to Elucidus for providing needed forum space.

Link:
www.cdgroup.org/forums

[lockstep]

Originally posted by player1
By the way, as far as I know, M. Swordsmen stats are 4/2/1/cost 40, needs Iron (and needed tech. unknown).

According to the recent chat at CivFanatics, Feudalism is the prereq of the Medieval Infantry.

[player1]

That forum got URL change:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3

[player1]

Since Civ3 PtW is coming soon, I have some questions here.

How should Guerrila be implemented in PtW version of this MOD?


At first, I'll assume that Firaxis will make Guerrila with only offense AI flag selected.
Since, when you are lacking of resources, you could build Riflemen too (since Rifles don't upgarde to Guerrilla). And that's better option since Riflemen is cheaper and upgrades to Infantry, while Guerrila is not. Giving it defense flag would just give a lots of problems. It would be like Swordsmen with defense AI flag.


I have some possibile solutions.

Solution close to core Civ3: Swordsmen and Longbowmen upgrade to Guerilla. Guerrila has attack of 7 (or maybe even 8), and cost of 80.
The probelm with these solution it that's not enough compatibile with PS MOD itself. Original idea of getting these units upgrade to Riflemen is done in order to remove those units from build list in early Industrial age. Having Rilemen (attack of 5) and Longbowmen in same queue just doesn't feel right.


Solution close to idea of PS MOD: Guerrila has attack of 8 and cost of 80. Nothing upgardes to it, but on the other hand you get reource free unit with same offense power as Infantry, but a little lower price.
Solution looks good for me, and old Sowrd & Bow units are not hosed, since they cen be upgraded to Infantry as before in this MOD. Personnaly I would vote for this option.


Radical, but interesting solution: You get Guerrila with Nationalism. It's same as original, but with cost of 80. Riflemen get attack of 4, and offense AI flag removed. Infantry (in order to balance things) get attack lowered to 7. All old offense foot units (Sword & Bow) upgrade to Guerrilas.
This way you got early Industrail offense foot unit and anicent units get at top of their "upgarde chains". The only probelms are that Guerrilas maybe look "too modern" comapred to Riflemen (but it's probably not too much), that Guerrilas are supposed to be guerrilas, not "stormtroopers", and that whole idea looks too radical for this MOD (tech preq. change).


Comments?

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by player1
Since Civ3 PtW is coming soon, I have some questions here.

How should Guerrila be implemented in PtW version of this MOD?

It seems to me there's a fourth option, though it too may seem radical: add a new unit with the same stats, prereq, and graphics as the rifleman, but set it to offense only and have it be seperate from the defensive unit upgrade chain. Set Swordsmen and Longbowmen to upgrade to the new unit, and set it to upgrade to Guerrilla.

I know you probably don't want to add new units to your mod, but it would basically be a duplicate Rifleman. Having only an offense flag on it would ensure that the AI wouldn't build a dead-end defensive unit. The only problem I see is that the AI might build what will become in the Modern Age a dead-end offensive unit. Then again, Cavalry is also a dead-end, so it might not be too bad.

[player1]

The problem with that is that you'll need to insert new folder files for new units which would duplicate Rilfleme art folder.

Pretty messy, especily for a MOD which is supposed to be 25KB BIC only.


P.S.
For now, 7/6/1, cost 80 and nothing upgardes to it, seems like probably most possibile solution (in PS MOD spirit).

(at least, if you don't have Rubberm you'll get an offnsive
unit )


P.P.S.
By the way, what all of you think of Bezerk unit? (6/2/1/70, needs nothing, Amphibious, replaces Longbowmen)

As far as I can see, I would probably make it at least 10 shields cheaper (since Lonbowmen is cheaper too).

And maybe reduce attack to 5 and make it even more cheaper. Which would give 5/2/1/50 unit.

[player1]

Help me, AI is just building Paratroopers instead of Tanks


When AI gets needed tech, it builds them instead of Tanks.
(paras have 8/10/1 stats)

Is there are way to prevent that AI suicidal behavior?

Is the same thing happening with original Civ3 paratroopers?


P.S.
Luckly this behavoir stops after AI gets Modern Armor.


P.P.S.
Maybe making them Defense AI unit would be temporary solution?
Anyway, since AI usualy uses defense AI strategy units for Pillaging, maybe that idea is not bad at all.

[player1]

I sent a mail to Speed Bump (Barry Caudill) about this, and here is response:

Me:

Barry,
This time I'm not mailing because of the new update.

It's just about one little "AI problem"

AI is just building Paratroopers instead of Tanks (in this MOD).

When AI gets needed tech, it builds them instead of Tanks.
(paras have 8/10/1 stats)

Is there are way to prevent that AI suicidal behavior?
Is the same thing happening with original Civ3 paratroopers?
(6/8/1)
Is that a BUG?

P.S.
Luckly this behavoir stops after AI gets Modern Armor.

The way it is now, I have no idea what to do.

Thanks,
Andrej Damjanovic (aka player1)
Free MOD developer

Speed Bump:

See Soren's answer below. We just made a change to the AI for PTW that
should fix this problem. The AI will no longer put such an emphasis on
operational range. Thanks for the update.

Sincerely,

Barry Caudill
QA Manager
Firaxis Games

From: Soren Johnson

It is almost certainly the increase in operational range... although the
stat changes might make a difference too. I would suggest increasing the
cost, or decreasing the range and/or the ADM. You could probably get
away with just decreasing the range.

For now, I think i'll reduce operation range back to 6 for paratroopers.
(and do same to Helicopters in order to make them balanced "one to another")

.

.

P.S.
By the way here are plans for next version:

Changes in ver 1.35

After some playtesting I moved back Steal Tech spy mission cost to original full value. It must have been something with 1.29f Civ3 patch. Since buying techs looks a little bit more expensive, and thus makes stealing tech in modern and industrial area way to cheap (in cases when 1-3 civs have needed tech). This should fix that.

It seems that there was a bug in AI, which made AI controlled player to use Paratroopers as main offense force instead of Tanks, if you increase Paratrooper's operational range value to anything higher them 6 (confirmed by Firaxis AI guys).

Until Civ3:PtW comes out I'll reduce Paratroopers op. range back to 6. Same will be done to Helicopters in order to make them balanced with Paratroopers (so they'll both have same op. range value of 6).

[player1]

VERSION 1.35 is OUT!

Changes in ver 1.35

After some playtesting I moved back Steal Tech spy mission cost to original full value. It must have been something with 1.29f Civ3 patch. Since buying techs looks a little bit more expensive, and thus makes stealing tech in modern and industrial area way to cheap (in cases when 1-3 civs have needed tech). This should fix that.

It seems that there was a bug in AI, which made AI controlled player to use Paratroopers as main offense force instead of Tanks, if you increase Paratrooper's operational range value to anything higher them 6 (confirmed by Firaxis AI guys).

Until Civ3:PtW comes out I'll reduce Paratroopers op. range back to 6. Same will be done to Helicopters in order to make them balanced with Paratroopers (so they'll both have same op. range value of 6).