MOD: Civ3 Fascist Patch

[monkspider]

You like Pac Gen too? and it's free? I have been trying to locate that old game again for years! I assume you are an admirer of all of the 5 star series SSI games? Panzer 1 was probably my most-played game in history and Allied General was great as well. I also think it's great you have engaged in through study in the field of WW II. I am exceptionally interested in the history of the Wehrmacht. I truly admire their ability to fight against all odds, on all fronts, and STILL almost win the war. Most German soldiers were more or less indifferent to the policies of the nazis. Their main concern was the defense of the fatherland, a country so unjustly treated after the treaty of Versailles.
But I again digress, I can respect your placement of Facisism this way, but being a peaceful leftist I tend to assume communism in Civ 3 represents, more or less, the marxist ideal, rather the stalinism or bolshevikism. That's why I have always wanted to see Communism as a sort of middle ground government. But I can see why you would subscribe to a more pessimistic version of Communism as well. In any event, I think we should bring back Fundamentalism as an uber-military government at least, i wish there was a way to give a 1.5 trade bonus or something of the like. As is, there isn't much we can do to differentiate between governments without them being too powerful or not powerful enough.
In any event, I think we need to impose something to make Facisism a bit less powerful, as trade bonus is REALLY powerful, military police is really powerful, and lack of war weariness is realy powerful, and higher corruption isn't quite that much of a disadvantage weighted next to it's many advantages, IMHO. I think we need to do SOMETHING to make Facisism slightly more a "bad guy " government.
Also, when the ability becomes available, it would be great if you could bring back the classic "stormtrooper" unit. Exclusive to the Facisists of course.

[narmox]

w00t! Now my civ3 experience will be complete! Thanks again for bringing this great patch to civ! oh, how I remember the days (before CTP) where I couldn't play civ2 unless I had the fascist patch.. ehheheh

[Wolfshanze]

Fascists and PacGen

Yes, I'm big on PacGen too... in fact, probably bigger on it, than on Civilization. I've kept PacGen alive for the past four years long after SSI abandoned the game by maintaining the Armory Website and constantly expanding and improving the game... you can hardly recognize PacGen now over what it was when SSI released it back in '97.

Go to the Armory and download the game for free, then update it with all that is available at the Armory, particularly the Equipment Roster. If you're into Nazi Germany, I highly recomend playing the "Z-Plan" campaign which represents Germany's naval plans before the war with large capital ships. A very interesting campaign.

Properly patched, PacGen is everything PG1 was and more, it's a far better game for both the Pacific and European theatres of war, and has a database from all nations of well over 1,000 units.

Now, back to Civilization (that's what we're here for after all). I will probably weaken Fascism a bit by lowering the number of free units a tad, and perhaps making Communism look better by raising the number of free units as well, this should balance things out a tad bit more.

Futhermore, I will (if it ever happens) reinstate the Stormtrooper if I can in the future, also the "dedicated" tech advance of "Fascism" once we have better editing tools!
Seig Heil to the Fascist Patch

[Scott F]

I think that a lot of people are confusing certain things. There is fascism in theory, fascism in practice, and national socialism. What the patch gives is a mix of fascism in theory (the good aspects) and fascism in practice (the corruption and bad aspects, mostly).

Fascism in practice, like in Spain, Italy, and the various authoritarian states of Eastern Europe, is a populist movement composed primarily of lower middle class elements who lost out in the industrial revolution and the Great War and fear the rise of socialist/leftist/communist governments that will give more power to the lower classes and further worsen their economic, social, and political positions. Fascism in practice, save in Germany, is a system of what can be called partial fascism in which the conservatives and old elites ally with the fascist movements in order to suppress the left and destroy democracy, things which both groups want. In practice, (partial) fascism does help the economy (in the short term, though not really in the long term), corruption is rampant, and the regime holds power as long as the conservative allies back them up.

Fascism in theory is a much more nebulous thing based on totalitarian ideas, the so-called leadership principle, and a vague economic policy that was never really defined by the people that thought it up (Mussolini, mostly). Fascism in theory is as different from fascism in practice as communism in theory is from communism in practice (it sounds great and nice and pleasant, but it turns out bad, negative, and nasty).

Then you have national socialism. This is in a league all of its own. National socialism evolved from the state of partial fascism that existed in Germany prior to 1938. The difference between Hitler and Mussolini and Franco is that Hitler managed to get rid of (or coordinate) his conservative allies by destroying their autonomy. While it is true that national socalism's flavor of fascism has a command economy, it also permits the industrialists and others to gain profits by going along with the regime's economic plans. The culminating goal of national socialism is war, thus it lends itself well to massive rearmament programs. The war idea comes from the racial and social darwinistic dynamics which are relatively unique to national socialism. At the same time, corruption within national socialism is extensive and quite hindering. This is due not just to corruption within the state and the party, but (mostly) because of the nature of the state. National socialism creates a wasteful and inefficient bureaucratic jungle in which various leaders are always battling each other for resources. In theory this results in darwinistic evolution of the best and smartest ideas being implemented. In practice it is incredibly wasteful, causing resources to be poorly and inefficiently allocated and the inevitable duplication of programs and agencies that results in even further resource wasting.

So in Civilization 3 terms, fascism in practice would be a strange mix between despotism and republic (the political consequences of one with the economic consequences of the other). National socialism, the "end all bad guy government" would be a government with problematic corruption, slowly stagnating science (the ideology is incredibly anti-intellectual), and a state that effectively exists in a period of unending total war mobilization (can't build improvements or wonders, just military units).

[Wolfshanze]

Now at v1.1 of Fascist Patch

Hmmm... interesting thoughts Scott... well, anyways, the Fascist Patch has now been updated to v1.1 (see first post on thread to update, or visit the official website).

Fascism's free military units have been slightly lowered, while Communism's has been slightly raised to seperate the differances between the two.

Furthermore, national love/hate relationships with governmental forms have been updated to include Fascist preferances.

[monkspider]

Good work Wolfy
What do you think of the possibility of raising the corruption a little bit to Monarchy level?
I shall post any possibilities for further tweaking on this thread in the future. By the way, thanks for the PacGen links, i'll definitely check it out.

[Wolfshanze]

Corruption and Fascism

Monkspider, that was indeed my original thoughts on Fascism... to give it a decent amount of Corruption, but as with anything, sometimes gameplay has to take precedence over reality.

The whole point of bringing Fascism to the game is to make a PLAYABLE late-game government that is a VIABLE third option to Communism and Democracy.

If you bring TOO MANY downsides to a government, nobody is going to use it, then the question becomes, why even bother doing it, if nobody is going to use it?

I want people to actuallly CONSIDER using Fascism, or the computer AI to do the same, if I cripple the government too much, nobody will touch it with a 10-foot pole, which is EXACTLY the case with Republic late in the game.

Nobody uses Despotism, Republic or Monarchy late in the game because all three have too many drawbacks when compared with either Communism or Democracy. You have three early-game forms of government, but only two late-game forms of government... I wanted at least a third viable option, and that is Fascism.

Now back to my original point, of the three late game governments, Fascism, Democracy and Communism, the government with the worst corruption rate is Fascism, having the same level of corruption as a Republic (which nobody uses in the late game anyways). Don't think of Republic corruption as a modern day Republic, but rather think of it as sharing the same level of corruption as say the Ancient Roman Republic.

Corruption in Civ3 is already far worse a penalty than it ever was in Civ1 or Civ2. Even low-level corruption of Communism and Democracy is VERY problematic in Civ3, so if I further make Fascism's corruption any worse than a government that is already ditched by late game because of corruption (Republic), I turn Fascism into a toothless wonder that nobody in their right mind would ever use.

This is where gameplay concerns have to outweigh trying to make it more accurate. Once again, this is an abstract game, not a university geopolitical 101 class, so I'll take gameplay as a priority here, and make Fascism a VIABLE third option for late game players... I've already balanced out the government with v1.1 and I think it's pretty good right now where it stands... I can't forsee making Fascism any weaker at this point, or once again, the only two good governments to use will be Democracy and/or Communism.

[facistdictator]

I think in reality that facism is a exellent goverment to have. People always tend to look at hitler and his hatered of jews, rather than what good things the goverment brought germany. Sadly we live in a age where people would rather be politicaly correct than hurt someone's feelings. Please dont get me wrong im not a racist I make decisions on facts not fiction. Picture yourself in post world war germany. Nations have imposed santions and restrictions on your country so bad most people cant even afford bread. Not only that but every nation throws your country's name in the dirt from defeat of the first world war. You yourself feel defeated worthless and weak. Then suddenly a man named hitler who is leading a party called the national socialist german worker's party tells you that you are superior to all those who have mocked you and that your rightful place is ruler of the world. He not only says that the sanctions against you and your homeland are wrong he delibertley defies the sanctions by rearming the german army above the imposed 100,000 man limit, a restriction in the versalies treaty. Thats what most people dont understand about nazi germany, the first thing they say is (how could this happen?) well for one most people have never lived in a nation that was defeated in a world war and on the brink of collapse by sanctions imposed by other nations. germany was also one of the most advanced nations in the war if not the most advanced. i read in a previous post someone saying that facism had very weak intelligence capabilities, thats bullcrap. i dont know about you but im going to be honest if i lived in that time i would have been a nazi too for the simple fact it produced quick results that saved the country from starvation and poverty. Most americans are so spoiled and pampered i think it would do them good to go live in some of the third world countries and see what life is like there. they dont know what blood was shed to have the blanket of freedom that they so carelessly take for granite. anyway sorry for this being so long guess i got carried away.

[ASHBERY76]

That's a cool facist patch website, now if we only had SS infantry graphics for the game.....

[Wolfshanze]

Civilization Fascist Site

Why thank you... the site is of course at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm

[monkspider]

Originally posted by facistdictator
I think in reality that facism is a exellent goverment to have. People always tend to look at hitler and his hatered of jews, rather than what good things the goverment brought germany. Sadly we live in a age where people would rather be politicaly correct than hurt someone's feelings. Please dont get me wrong im not a racist I make decisions on facts not fiction. Picture yourself in post world war germany. Nations have imposed santions and restrictions on your country so bad most people cant even afford bread. Not only that but every nation throws your country's name in the dirt from defeat of the first world war. You yourself feel defeated worthless and weak. Then suddenly a man named hitler who is leading a party called the national socialist german worker's party tells you that you are superior to all those who have mocked you and that your rightful place is ruler of the world. He not only says that the sanctions against you and your homeland are wrong he delibertley defies the sanctions by rearming the german army above the imposed 100,000 man limit, a restriction in the versalies treaty. Thats what most people dont understand about nazi germany, the first thing they say is (how could this happen?) well for one most people have never lived in a nation that was defeated in a world war and on the brink of collapse by sanctions imposed by other nations. germany was also one of the most advanced nations in the war if not the most advanced. i read in a previous post someone saying that facism had very weak intelligence capabilities, thats bullcrap. i dont know about you but im going to be honest if i lived in that time i would have been a nazi too for the simple fact it produced quick results that saved the country from starvation and poverty. Most americans are so spoiled and pampered i think it would do them good to go live in some of the third world countries and see what life is like there. they dont know what blood was shed to have the blanket of freedom that they so carelessly take for granite. anyway sorry for this being so long guess i got carried away.

In spite of personally despising Fascism, I find that you make some very good points. I have always admired the Wehrmacht in a way, since they were sort of like a kid who was always picked on at the playground and grew up to beat up the bullys who always picked on him. Germany was fighting nearly every other country in the world and STILL almost won simply due to their merits of superior tactics and pride in their country. I think you are right on, if Germany were justly treated after WW I, WW II probably would have likely never occured.

[facistdictator]

In spite of personally despising Fascism, I find that you make some very good points. I have always admired the Wehrmacht in a way, since they were sort of like a kid who was always picked on at the playground and grew up to beat up the bullys who always picked on him. Germany was fighting nearly every other country in the world and STILL almost won simply due to their merits of superior tactics and pride in their country. I think you are right on, if Germany were justly treated after WW I, WW II probably would have likely never occured Thanx man! Wolfshanze this is just a thought. It may have already been posted but you ever thought about adding a special wonder for a facist goverment like maybe the autobon or something and maybe for that matter a special wonder for each individual goverment. Like maybe the Kremlin for the communist, Statue of liberty for democracy, and lets say maybe a great republic hall for republic.

[Wolfshanze]

Now releasing v1.2

New changes include:
Updated Civilopedia
Balancing of Naval Units (see below):

NAVAL UNIT CHANGES

Old Unit Values
Attack/Defend/Move
Galley 1/1/3
Caravel 1/1/2
Galleon 1/2/4
Privateer* 1/1/3
Frigate 2/2/4
Man-O-War 3/2/4
Ironclad 4/4/4
Transport 1/4/5
Carrier 1/8/4
Sub* 6/4/3
Destroyer* 12/8/5
Battleship 18/12/5
Aegis Cruiser 12/10/5
Nuke Sub 6/4/3


New Unit Values
Attack/Defend/Move
Galley 1/1/3
Caravel 1/1/2
Galleon 2/3/4
Privateer* 3/2/4
Frigate 4/3/4
Man-O-War 5/3/4
Ironclad 6/6/4
Transport 1/5/5
Carrier 2/9/5
Sub* 8/6/4
Destroyer* 12/8/5
Battleship 18/12/4
Aegis Cruiser 14/10/5
Nuke Sub 10/8/5

SPECIAL NOTES
*Privateer now costs 40 shields instead of 50 and has weak bombardment capability
*Sub no longer can see other subs
*Destroyer can now see subs

You can download it on the official website, or the updated first post on this forum.

[David Murray]

Wolfshanze -- how did you create the fascist govt? I'm interested to know because when I get my copy of Civ3 (Friday), I want to create some more govt. types--theocracy, military dictatorship, etc. Or is is done simply through the editor...?

[David Murray]

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