MOD: Civ3 Fascist Patch

[dr.charm]

The Nazi intelligence service was the Abwehr and was indeed run by Canaris, until he was removed. There was also a competing intelligence service run by the SS, under the direct command of Himmler. Himmler had Canaris removed and then took over the intelligence gathering (such as it was) for the entire Third Reich.

In my Fascism gov't, I have not included the trade bonus, on the rational that 1) it unbalances Fascism (witness all Civs using it) and 2) it's not terribly realistic based on historical fascist gov'ts. I have also made the workers set at 3.

Does anyone know if it is possible to make civs that have the same gov't more likely to form Alliances?

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps

[monkspider]

WolfShanze- Upon a little more playtesting it does seem Facism is quite a bit too powerful. I would take out the trade bonus personally. I would like to see Facism be even more of a military government than Communism, as it was in Civ 2.
Don't take this as criticism though, we all appreciate your great work!

[monkspider]

I have been doing some tweaking and find these to be pretty good settings
-Dropping the tile bonus
-Increase draft rate and military police bonuses to 4 a piece
-increasing free units to:
town- 3
city- 5
metropolis- 10
-setting a rate cap of 5, meaning you can dedicate no more than 50% to science.
-making Facism available with the advent of Nationalism (rather then Espionage)
This makes Facism the ultimate military government, and at the same time be pretty balanced. It is sort of a Fundamentalism for Civ 3. I'm open to hearing some tweaking options of course.
What do you think Wolfshanze?

[monkspider]

Note, for anyone interested in trying out my more-military minded version of Wolfshanze's patch, please download 'er here.
Please offer any fair criticism!

http://www.geocities.com/monkspider/civ3mod.zip

NOTE: you MUST have Wolfshanze's original patch installed before installing this one.
Of course, just replace the mod file in the root Civ 3 folder with mine, and you're good to go!

[Wolfshanze]

Monkspider, I think you missed something here with regards to how I set up Fascism, and you're missing a BIG point.

It's been stated before, nobody uses Republic late in the game. There is a reason for this... because anyone who uses Republic tends to switch to either Democracy or Communist late in the game.

Why do they switch? Why does nobody use Republic late in the game?

Because the corruption of Republic is simply awful and nobody chooses it over the lower corruption of Democracy or Communism.

If you stop and think for a minute, how I rated Fascism is simply a Republic with no war weariness and free units, but it still has the awful corruption of Republic.

Fascism is CLEARLY superior to Republic... it's supposed to be, because nobody uses Republic late in the game.

What it is NOT clearly superior to is Democracy (which will kick a Fascist Government in the ass with research and commerce), or Communism, which has a lower and better balanced corruption rate than Fascism.

By taking away the Trade bonus from Fascism you have weakened the government to be CLEARLY INFERIOR to either Communism or Democracy in pretty much any endeavor. Communism was already top-notch with military matters, and there is no real reason to be Fascist if you take away the trade bonus.

In my opinion, it is a VERY BAD move to take away the trade bonus, and frankly, with your modification of my Fascist Patch, I'd play as a Communist any day and easily defeat a Fascist Regime who is ripe with corruption.

[Wolfshanze]

Fascist Disadvantages

As stated above there are disadvantages...

CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION

The biggest one is the corruption which is obviously bigger than either Communism or Democracy, plus because Fascism comes late in the game, it sucks even worse if you're a large empire (which most people are late in the game) since corruption is awful on the fringes of your empire... neither Communism or Democracy have to deal with this.

Bottom line, the only advantage Fascism has over Communism is the trade bonus, and NOTHING ELSE. Communism on the other hand, is much better at being a large empire and dealing with corruption.

The Democracy is a tougher call, but is clearly a better choice than Fascism for some... people say the "war weariness" is great for Fascism vs Democracy... well, maybe to a warmonger it is, but if you're shooting for culture or other peaceful endeavors what good is war weariness to you? Furthermore with less corruption (far less), A Democracy can outresearch a fascist government, so clearly, for the peaceful player (or even a defensive wartime player), Democracy is a better choice than Fascism.

As for one other tidbit... a Fascist Government hurries production with slave labor, ergo killing off it's own population... something a Democracy (or even Republic) doesn't do!

Yes, Virginia, Fascism has plenty of downsides.

[monkspider]

I didn't mean to attempt to undermine your hard work Wolfy, which is indeed highly appreciated. But I personally have always associated Fascism with military conquest. Don't you think Facisism should be the uber-military government choice? As is, Facsism is sort of a cross between Republic and Communism, and I think most people think of Fascism as the ultimate "bad guy" government. I think it would prove to be much more distinct as such. I'm sure that my suggestions could be highly tweaked, and perhaps currently it is, as you suggest, weaker than Democracy and Communism. But I think Facisism, as it stands now, as a relatively peaceful governement, is headed in the wrong fundamental direction. Facisism tends to conjure up images historically of brute force, and military conquest, which is why most would find Facisism would be better as a uber-military government, along the same lines as Fundamentalism in Civ 2.
Also the trade bonus is HUGELY powerful, and gives virtually no motivation to play as Communism or Democracy, because it truly offers the best of both worlds. Massive gold and science, as well as military police and free military units. Sorry if I seem rude, after all your hardwork, but I think you will agree with me that that Facisism is better as a fundamentalism-esque military government than a "guns and butter" government.

[monkspider]

Upon looking over the statistics posed earlier in this thread, I think you may be right in me posing too much of a science cap on the government. But I think the key is keeping a cap of some sort, so that Facisism is the weakest government scientifically, but giving it all powerful military strength, while keeping a fair balance between the two. Perhaps we could even add Democracy-level Corruption if the Republic level (which I don't think is quite as bad as you may think) proves to be too much of a nuisance?

[Wolfshanze]

What is Fascism?

Monkspider... I think you and I have completely differant understandings of what Fascism is and/or was during the 20th century.

You keep speaking of Fascism like it was the BEST wartime government to have, and state it should have the worst science rate.

From my own knowledge of history and fascism, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, and in fact, it sounds to me more like you are describing Communism, not Fascism.

Points of fact:
Fascism is a FREE-MARKET economy, which isn't far off from a Republic or Democracy (a major reason why I gave them the trade bonus).

The Nazis most productive and fruitful economic years were BEFORE THE WAR, as they ammased many social benefit and work programs... when the war started, it took the Nazis YEARS before they ever had a full-scale wartime economy... the Germans were WAY BEHIND in production figures over what they could have been, and in fact, it took the Germans over five years before they ACTUALLY went full-scale wartime production footing, and by then, it was too late. The Communists on the other hand had a booming economy during the war, and easily and quickly outstripped Germany, not only because of it's size, but because of it's commitment to the war, which the Nazis never took seriously.

Nazi Germany was NEVER geared towards a major war effort... in fact, every plan the Germans had regarding war was the minimalist approach. Blitzkrieg warfare by it's very nature is designed to be short decisive wars with minimal economic impact at home. The Nazis lost partly-in-fact because the war with Communist Russia dragged on... the Communists successfully adjusted the economy, while the Nazis handled theirs poorly during the war.

Scientifically, though Nazi Germany suffered corruption and redundant programs, they still had great scientific success, something the Communists never (or at least rarely) had. Not to say that the Nazis had a better science drive than American Democracy, but it was CERTAINLY better than the Soviets!

Overall, if you look at what I did, is that I placed Fascism IN-BETWEEN Communism and Democracy in it's effectiveness for wartime and peace... a whole I think Fascism fills in nicely.

I understand that you (and perhaps others) may view Fascism and thier kind as running the PERFECT wartime economy, as seems to be your argument. Well, if history is any indication, you couldn't be more mistaken... the Nazis and their Blitzkriegs were designed to keep their economy as close to a peacetime one as possible!

The game of Civilization is not meant to make history a mockery of what it was, but rather perhaps, with a little luck, teach everyone a little bit about history. The Fascist myth (and it is a myth) of Fascism being the perfect wartime economy is plain silly. The historical truth is that Fascism was far more a free-market economy and not well suited for all-out war. Had the Fascists actually used the German economy to it's fullest capacity for war starting in 1939, rather than in 1944 as was the actual case, we may all be speaking German now!

Bottom line, I think I modeled Fascism as best as possible within the given game mechanics, and I think it fits in nicely in-between Communism and Democracy where it belongs... it is certainly not the best government for a long drawn-out war, but that sort of war is counter to what a blitzkrieg is, now isn't it!?!?!

[monkspider]

Being throughly studied in WW II, your facts regarding the Russo-German war are indeed accurate. Whether Facisism or Communism should be more or less scientificly/militaristicly is merely matter of how you view history. I think you certainly underestimate the power of Soviet science, which had developed superior tanks to Germany at the start of Barbarossa, and had, at least, as good of tanks as anyone by the end of the war, the Soviet airforce improved considerablly as well. Had Stalin not purged most of the USSR's great scientific minds the USSR may have been on virtually an equal footing with Germany. In spite of these purges, which had a long lasting "brain-drain" upon the USSR until it's final collapse, the USSR put up a good fight scientifically even with the United States after WW II. While usually a step or two behind in most fields, it certainly held it's own. On the same coin, I'm sure a fair case could be made for Communism being unfairly represented as a "savage", "war-like" government as well. In any event, I digress. I think that the semantics of how one personally views history aren't the main issues at stake here. There are two fundamental points to be addressed.
1. The game needs an Ultra-militaristic state, and most people view facisism as the ultimate bad-guy government. Whether their views are accurate or not is entirely subjective to how you view history. Some may tend to highlight for the massive economic revamping right-wing facisism brought Germany, yet others would highlight the cold-hearted, and war-like nature of the stereotypical Facist country. While perhaps the ideals of Facisism may not involve things such as anti-semtisim, extreme nationalism, excessive hegemony, general war-mongerism, and the other bad things seem to come with the stereotypical facisist country, generally speaking at least, in our version of history. In any event, Facisism fills a general stereotype of what the ultra-militaristic state entails, and as such, would fit nicely into the game.
2. The Guns and butter approach takes the best things of Democracy and Communism with no substantial drawbacks, corruption is higher to be sure, but enough to substantiate Democracy-like science and Communism-like military? There are tweaks that can be made, but I suppose that's why this is only version 1.0. No?
In any event, I hate to seem too critical here, as we all appreciate your work here Wolfy.

[David Murray]

Facism favours free trade? Hold up a second.

Fascism: "exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

You've got your priorities all wrong here. Fascism has a very strongly centralized state. There should be no bonuses for free trade, because under fascism...there is no free trade. On the other hand, the overbearing state should virtually root out all corruption. Fascism--low on corruption, low on trade (low on morals, too).

I've also noticed some people who seem to think Hitler brought fascism to Germany. Well, he didn't. Be brought national socialism. He controlled the economy almost as much as he controlled the lives of individuals--Communism with a distinctively racist element added to it.

This idea that fascism promotes free trade is gobsh*te.

[Fcubed]

Well in my oppinion Fascist govs should have one of the highest science available if ww2 germany is any indication. during the war and before it they developed more war weapons than any of the democratic or communist govs. this can be seen in the rocketry and advanced tanks. there are stories of a single King Tiger or Panzer 7 (i think) taking out as many as 50 american or russian tanks. as well for the creation of jet fighters and a pre icbm. Hitler was a little obsessed with artillery and slowed reserch on rocketry as well as an allied comando raid that killed lead scientist at the reserch sites. the allies beat germany because they had more of everything were they (germans) had not many. D day was a big trick played on the germans. all in all i think Fascist should get high reserch on military if that is posible. bet plz lets not get to analyzing all of WWII

Fcubed

[ludwaffe]

fascism, free trade

Fascist governments in history arose partially out of the collective hatred of socialism. Acting as the socialist antithesis, they favored free trade, via big industry, as opposed to democracy which believes in balancing the rights of the employed vs. the employers, or communism which says (in short simple theory) to kill your boss but then get back to work.
A government that placed the needs of large corporations over their own citizenry was deemed "estato corporativo" by the Italians, which somehow through the sands of time and translation became more popularly known as fascism. Trying to build a fascist patch as a Civ 3 emulation of Nazi Germany is not the best route to go (until scenarios can be made to resemble WWII...then that would be pretty cool). General patterns of all fascist governments should be taken into account...and so far I think that the original patch is the best deal given the limited amount one can modify this game.

[JustinCEO]

While it's true that fascists and commies often fought, in essence they were two sides of the same coin (socialism). Communists sought to redistribute wealth to the "proletariat", fascists claimed sovereignity and the right to regulate and control the use of all property(and often to redistribute it to either themselves or certain favored corporate friends) .

It's worth noting that *none* of these is truly in line with the ideals of the free market, or laissez-faire capitalism, which has a deep abiding respect of people's private property and abhors the notion of redistribution of wealth (which is why the idea of fascism getting a "free trade" bonus seems a bit silly to me).

While a system that only nominally protects private property and redistribute much of it to government and favored corporations is *definitely* far from the economically ideal situation of laissez-faire, it is still admittedly a smidgen better then communism's economy-ruining central planning committees, and thus should be marginally better economically, though no where near what's considered the game's version of laissez-faire, Democracy. The best that could be said about fascism economy-wise is that it's communism's slightly more practical sister

[Wolfshanze]

Fascism, economy, etc...

I have to agree with Justin and Ludwaffe here.

As you can see Monkspider, the opinions of what Fascism is and isn't is varied from person to person. Not everyone here seems to think that just because the nazis were "bad" doesn't mean they should be exhalted as the end-all-be-all wartime government.

As for the economy of Nazi Germany, it certainly isn't the "free-market" economy of what we have in the western nations of today, but it's a far cry from the absolutely abismal economy of Communist Russia. It was considerably better than what the communist economy was, and had Germany won in Europe in WW2, and a cold war existed between the US and Germany, instead of the US and Russia, we'd probably still be in a cold war today, because the German economy would not have collapsed as Russia's did. Simply put, you don't want to be in a Communist economy forever, or you'll collapse... kinda like what being communist is in Civ3, but it's a good way to choose for war! Fascsim on the other hand is a better choice for long-term use economy-wise both in reality and in Civ3.

The trade bonus in Civ3 in my interpretation more reflects a "modern" economy, more than a laisse-fair capitalist economy. I think the trade bonus should be given to any government that could privatize the industry rather than central government control. Nazi Germany, though with much government regulation, was still sponsoring private firms to regulate themselves, something the Communists never did, and THAT is what makes the differance in the trade bonus in Civ3.

As for Nazi Germany vs Fascist Italy or Fascist Spain or any other fascist regime, yes, there were many, and no, Nazi Germany is not the only example to model Fascism on. However, I will agree with monkspider on the fact that sometimes you do need to take public opinion into account, and if you ask any man on the street to name a fascist nation from history (outside of the "man on the street" in Italy), you'll probably get the answer of "Germany" 9 times out of 10, and that is why I do reflect more of Nazi Germany than other nations, it's simply a recognition thing.


Finally, there is such a thing as pleasing all the people, all the time, and as with anything, that's pretty much impossible. Everyone has their own opinions. Everyone sees things in a differant light. I can't make a fascist patch that everyone will always agree with all the time that makes everyone happy, but I do think I can make one that MOST of the people will agree with, and while Monkspider doesn't agree with my interpretation, he obviously has the ability to change it to his own vision, which is what is great about Civ3.

I've gone through all this before with the Civ2 Fascist Patch, and as before, the general consensus of most of the people was that Fascism SHOULD be in-between Communism and Democracy in economy and wartime capability. Yes the Fascist Patch is in v1.0 right now, and will undergo changes... if anything, I will strengthen the wartime capabilities of Communism and weaken Fascism (perhaps lower Fascism's free units and raise Communism's), but I will definately keep the trade bonus for Fascism to recognize it as a viable modern economy, and capable of good research.

World War II has been my hobby for nearly 30 years now, I like to think I know a little something about Nazi Germany, and I think that given the confines of an abstract game like Civ3, I'm as close as I'm going to be, but a few more tweaks may indeed come!

In the meantime, if anyone around here is interested in World War II games and Nazi Germany (or Imperial Japan, or Colonial Britain, or France, you name it), I highly recomend the great game of Pacific General which is FREE these days! I've done a TON of mod work to it, and you can visit my website for PacGen and get the game for free at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/armory.html

So everyone have fun with Civ3, and if you're up for a new challenge, try PacGen too. I'll of course keep working on the Fascist Patch in the meantime!