Bad news: Next patch on hold

[Petrus2]

Actually, Sir Ralph, companies do listen to the rabid fans. Input from those sources has been incorporated in games for years now. Face it, most players never give feedback to the companies, so it ends up being the hardcore that get the input.

Having said that, it isn't practical for a company to let the tail wag the dog. By that I mean those 5000 hardcore players can't drive decisions on a 1 million seller game. Can they influence? SURE! Dominate the decisions? Not likely.

This isn't just in computer games or general computer programs, either. It is across pretty much all products. A company is in business for profit, and they must serve their core audience first. The hardcore help that core audience by providing excellent feedback and proposing improvements, but even that can only go so far.

Theseus makes a good point in how relationships between computer game devs and the community are changing. I think FPS/RTS games are ahead of the turn-based strategy companies on that. I point back to my earlier post where I mentioned that Firaxis COULD release the code, thus removing the burden of QA'ing mods, or that they could QA a "fan produced patch".

In summary, if anyone wants to have an impact with a company, intelligent, polite, concise emails/posts are what get results. Remember, somewhere a PERSON has to read the comments as a starting point, and that person probably wants to do a good job and produce a quality product, just like all of us do at our regular jobs.

And for any product, remember the 3 main gaming magazines (in the US at least) and their reviews...excellent sites like this...and other sources of reliable reviews, before you spend those dollars! There are currently only two companies I'm willing to buy a product from without reviews, and in spite of any issues with C3C, Firaxis is one of them (Pop Top is the other).

Ok, I'll stop preachifying now

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Petrus2
Actually, Sir Ralph, companies do listen to the rabid fans. Input from those sources has been incorporated in games for years now. Face it, most players never give feedback to the companies, so it ends up being the hardcore that get the input.

Having said that, it isn't practical for a company to let the tail wag the dog. By that I mean those 5000 hardcore players can't drive decisions on a 1 million seller game. Can they influence? SURE! Dominate the decisions? Not likely.

This isn't just in computer games or general computer programs, either. It is across pretty much all products. A company is in business for profit, and they must serve their core audience first. The hardcore help that core audience by providing excellent feedback and proposing improvements, but even that can only go so far.

This translates to "The hardcore players are convenient and gratis beta testers for the core audience and have absolutely no right to desire a quality product". Sorry, but I disagree. I am not interested in extra features. All I want is, that the game works as described.

Theseus makes a good point in how relationships between computer game devs and the community are changing. I think FPS/RTS games are ahead of the turn-based strategy companies on that. I point back to my earlier post where I mentioned that Firaxis COULD release the code, thus removing the burden of QA'ing mods, or that they could QA a "fan produced patch".

In summary, if anyone wants to have an impact with a company, intelligent, polite, concise emails/posts are what get results. Remember, somewhere a PERSON has to read the comments as a starting point, and that person probably wants to do a good job and produce a quality product, just like all of us do at our regular jobs.

Yes, of course. But are they aware, that some of us aren't spoiled kids, but also hard working people, who want to provide their scarce spare time with a working and enjoyable game?

And for any product, remember the 3 main gaming magazines (in the US at least) and their reviews...excellent sites like this...and other sources of reliable reviews, before you spend those dollars!

Sorry, but I don't give a damn about these gaming magazines. They gave a 9 out of 10 for unpatched plain Civ3, enough said. They have zero competence.

There are currently only two companies I'm willing to buy a product from without reviews, and in spite of any issues with C3C, Firaxis is one of them (Pop Top is the other).

Ok, I'll stop preachifying now

If you're content with what you got, more power to you. For me, Firaxis meanwhile stands for "Wait, look for reviews of really reliable fans (not gaming magazines, who cheer up everything), and buy when it hits the $5 shelf at the earliest.

And for your records, I have been a staunch Civ3 supporter since it came out. I remained loyal through plain Civ3, which was a buggy mess when it came out and developed into a decent game finally patched. I did my very best to help, too. I stayed loyal, when the MP part of PtW didn't work as desired. Maybe because I prefer PBEM over online MP, which worked halfway. I always was a constructive and polite fanboy, through two long years.

I bought the game and the two XPs the very day they came out, for the full price, which was pretty high compared to other, more complicated games. I bought all of them even twice, for me and my son. Be honest, who of you bought an extra copy for a family member? I did. I showed the game to my friends and colleagues. Some of them (not the FPS crowd, obviously) bought the game too.

I was not even upset, when Conquests came out buggy. Be patient, I said to me, they will fix it. They fixed all so far. But I was wrong. They left me out in the cold. And this is, what I will never forgive them.

[DrSpike]

Amen.

I'm not settler bashing but you really have to been here from the start to really understand our positions (maybe, you were, I can't say for sure. )

We tested this game, and it took the best part of a year to finish. Then PTW was one of the worst XPs in history, since MP, it's main component, was broken beyond belief on release, and took a while to fix. Then Conquests and the whole gpt and FP shenanigans. I actually appauded (and still applaud) the openness about the beta patching, but in the end it also showed how bad things really were organisation wise. The people posting here had no clue about the FP model in their own game (I know it's tricky to the uninitiated but come on, if you are posting here on Firaxis' behalf then at least spend 30 mins getting the basics) and posted incorrect and contradictory statements. They also had 3 attempts at fixing it in the beta patches before it worked as advertised, and if it wasn't for dedicated fans like Alexman maybe they never would have.

What's more, some of the AI tweaks accumulated over 2 years are gone, perhaps never to be replaced. Too much of the game does not function properly, and will perhaps never be fixed.

You can try and be reasonable all you want, but there comes a time when you have to stop defending and say, look, this just isn't good enough.

[Harovan]

Or to say it short and precise (and polite!):

We did a hard job beta testing for more than 2 years. Now it's time to play the game. Can we please have a working version now?

Pretty please!

[DrSpike]

"Yes, you can buy Civ4, and this time we *assure* you it will be tested thoroughly, and anyway, even if it needs a little work we wont run off to the next game"

[Harovan]

Now if you *assure* it, I will believe it, of course.

[DrSpike]

Excellent. Now would you like to buy some real estate?

[Theseus]

What kind of bonuses does it have?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Petrus2
This isn't just in computer games or general computer programs, either. It is across pretty much all products. A company is in business for profit, and they must serve their core audience first. The hardcore help that core audience by providing excellent feedback and proposing improvements, but even that can only go so far.

That is exactly why they need to bite the bullet and return to fix this game. Assuming it can be fixed after a third party was allowed to rampage under the hood.

As a business sometimes you have to eat the loss and make sure your customers get fixed up, or more and more people stop being your customers. When the core players stop being your fans, you might have a major problem.

[notyoueither]

Of course, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. Since it seems that Firaxis has several irons in the fire, and some of them are tending towards hot at the moment, apparently.

However, I do remember that a patch was released for one of the old Civil War games just about the time PtW was coming out.

The reason I will not rip on Firaxis is that they have fixed their stuff in the past. They have my trust until they demonstrate that they do not deserve it.

[player1]

Well, the good thing is that nobody from Fiarxis said that there is 0% for future patching, just that it stopped for now.

[Petrus2]

I don't disagree, NYE. The question then, at the company level, is What does the mass customer think? (sadly, since most never "speak", they have probably abrogated their opportunity to have an impact).

If the general customer is quiet, then the "hardcore" tend to have more of an impact, although this is not always for the best! (I can point to a few laws from Congress that are the result of vocal minority interest groups!!!). I'm not sure off the top of my head when Pirates is due out, but I think it is fall/winter. So I would assume Firaxis is FULLY employed grinding on that, and not likely the people are doing just 8 hours days either. This may not cheer some people up, but realistically if C3C is going to be patched, it probably won't be until after Pirates ships and the first patch for that hits the streets.

[player1]

Originally posted by Petrus2 This may not cheer some people up, but realistically if C3C is going to be patched, it probably won't be until after Pirates ships and the first patch for that hits the streets.

Well, that my resoning too.
I doubt that all programers from Pirates would switch to Civ4 after that, so maybe (big maybe) there would be someone for Civ3.


P.S.
When are Pirates going to be released?

[sabrewolf]

civ3 complete should be coming out this autumn, or probably short before christmas.

i believe firaxis won't want to have to produce a patch for c3complete, and if they do, it'll be bugs that are new in this, like not accepting PTW original CDs, if you start up PTW mode (that problem was in C3C in the beginning).

after that, jesse will either join another programming group (afaik he's already working on civ4) or he's going to be let to patch civ3complete...

in either case, i highly doubt that's we'll ever get another patch for conquests...

does this make sence, guys? agree? disagree?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
civ3 complete should be coming out this autumn, or probably short before christmas.

i believe firaxis won't want to have to produce a patch for c3complete, and if they do, it'll be bugs that are new in this, like not accepting PTW original CDs, if you start up PTW mode (that problem was in C3C in the beginning).

after that, jesse will either join another programming group (afaik he's already working on civ4) or he's going to be let to patch civ3complete...

in either case, i highly doubt that's we'll ever get another patch for conquests...

does this make sence, guys? agree? disagree?

Errr... as far as I'm aware Civ3 Complete will just be the game and the two add-ons included. Thus any patch that could conceivably come out afterwards would be useful for Conquests as it is now.