Agriculture = Ultimate ICS trait = Too Powerful?

[Saint Marcus]

IMHO, Civ3 was already quite a game of ICS-ing. But now with Agriculture, it gets even worse. Extra food means faster pop growth means more settlers can be build means even more expansion.

I know which civs I'll play as. ICS-ing all the way.

[statusperfect]

And i know which civ i will play building mines with my industrial workers and rolling over your landfat country with my militaristic horsemen

I think the old traits are equal with the new ones.

This has been playtested by hundreds of people.

[sabrewolf]

from another thread, but it fits here

What will be the benefits for the Agriculture & Seafaring traits?
Agricultural recieves a bonus food in its City square.
and Agr gets extra food on irrigated desert
agricultural also gets cheaper aqueducts, recycling plants and solar plants.
And if the Agr city tile is next to water the despotism penalty doesn't apply to its food
(source: CFC - chat, edited version)

imho argicultural sounds like an extremely powerful trait, somewhere in the region of industrial.
- no despotism penalty if city is near water, makes cities destined for rexing. the only disadvantage is that OCP or similar concepts might be broken (until now the only disadvantage was that the aqueduct had to be built)
- a bad start on a dry map (desert) is like starting with loads of plains (2f, 1s)
- cheaper aqueducts


edit: forgot to close quote

[statusperfect]

If it is next to a river the despotism restriction doesn't apply o the city tiles food production that is

[Saint Marcus]

I think the old traits are equal with the new ones.

This has been playtested by hundreds of people.

Hardly. and playtesting doesn't mean a thing (since they mostly test for technical flaws and not playability flaws).

And we all know that ICS is THE way to go in Civ, Civ2 and Civ3. With this trait, it suddenly becomes a whole lots easier since your civ is likely to produce food faster and is thus able to build more settlers, and thus expand faster.

I'll play an Agricultural-Industrious/Religious nation, for sure.

[Arrian]

I wouldn't say that "we all know that ICS is the way to go" in CivIII. First off, I guess it depends on what you consider to be ICS. If you're talking about city-tile-city, then I really don't think ICS is the way to go in CivIII. City-tile-tile-city... well, that one could certainly argue.

Having said that, pop IS power. Extra food is nothing to sneeze at, and even if you don't plop cities down every other tile, the increased growth rate (and the added ease with which you can get cities up to the magical +5 food/turn) is going to be powerful.

Cheaper aqueducts (assuming the standard 50% discount) could also be big, since that will save you 50 shields per non-lake/river city. It's not quite the shield saver that religious or scientific are, but coupled with the food boost it's lookin' mighty juicy.

-Arrian

[Louis XXIV]

One flaw with Agricultual civs that are overlooked.

The Despotism penalty removal only applies to the center-square when you have water nearby.

Do you know how much food you will get from the center square in Despotism without water nearby?
The answer is 2.
In Despotism, you loose 1 food if you are over 2 food. The default is 2, Agricultural gives you 3 (-1 for Despotism and you end up with 2).

You have to build on water to have any effect until Monarchy or Republic

[Arrian]

True. That is a weakness. But I often manage to get a good number of cities built on fresh water (I assume ocean doesn't count), so I do expect I'd get quite a boost from this trait in many of my games.

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

I think an ag/exp civ would be quite nice. quick graineries with that extra food. mmm.

The seafaring trait actually seems to be more powerful than the ag trait IMHO, with that extra movement and reduced sinking along with the other stuff (that I obviously can't remember )

If that civ got the Lighthouse, you're looking at 5 move galleys. Early naval warfare is that much more accessible.

[Dominae]

Agricultural does not make ICS more powerful in particular, because you only get extra Food in cities that are adjacent to fresh water. ICS is defined by placing as many cities anywhere; Agricultural only benefits those cities that are in specific locations (by fresh water). Agricultural makes growth in general powerful. Growth is not particular to ICS.

If you're the type to reload to find those perfect River-full starts (with a couple of Cattle, why not?), you're going to have an explosive start with Agricultural. Then again, you would have an explosive start with any other trait if you do this, so what's the difference? On average Agriculural should not be overly powerful.


Dominae

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dominae
Agricultural does not make ICS more powerful in particular, because you only get extra Food in cities that are adjacent to fresh water. ICS is defined by placing as many cities anywhere; Agricultural only benefits those cities that are in specific locations (by fresh water). Agricultural makes growth in general powerful. Growth is not particular to ICS.

If you're the type to reload to find those perfect River-full starts (with a couple of Cattle, why not?), you're going to have an explosive start with Agricultural. Then again, you would have an explosive start with any other trait if you do this, so what's the difference? On average Agriculural should not be overly powerful.


Dominae

I agree. To me it seems like the ag trait is best for players who don't reload, as it makes a desert start much more viable.For some reason, It seems i'm much more likely to start adjacent to jungle than desert, however. So instead of a killer, for me, its more of an equalizer.

[Dominae]

If you're playing Agr. and your Jungle city is by a River, you're still guaranteed "normal" (10-turn) growth. Let's poprush some Temples!


Dominae

[Merepatra]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


Hardly. and playtesting doesn't mean a thing (since they mostly test for technical flaws and not playability flaws).

This certainly wasn't true with Conquests testing. While technical testing is really important, playability was a major focus of most of the beta testing.

Our beta testers included a lot of rabid Civers debating every tiny playability point

[OPD]

Is the extra food from the city square present at the start?

If so then a city next to a river with a single grassland cow will start with 5 food per turn........ without even irrigating anything......

size 6 after 20 turns?

Perhaps, if adjacent to water, the penalty is imposed at 3 food rather than at 2 food.

[Dominae]

Actually an unimproved Grassland with Cattle tile produces +3 Food per turn, meaning that on turn 1 an Agr. civ's capital has +4 Food per turn when working such a tile. You would need to start next to a Flood Plains with Wheat to get +5 Food per turn on turn 1.


Dominae