Agriculture = Ultimate ICS trait = Too Powerful?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Shame on you Dominae!

Wonder what this post held.

Nothing new, really.

Let's just say I have an unhealthy fear of my NAP.

Saint Marcus: I think you're really discounting the value of Seafaring on the higher difficulty levels. Coupled with the new rule about Contact trading, this trait allows you to get earlier overseas Contacts and keep them to yourself, which is undoubtedly very powerful the more tech trading you need to do (and you do a lot on Deity). Seafaring will obviously be better on Archipelago maps (as Expansionist is on Pangeas), but both are definitely potent on your standard Continents game.

I think both new traits create interesting and viable strategic options (so both the serious and casual gamers should be happy!).

Edit: You know you've played too much Civ3 when you say 'NAP' instead of 'NDA'.


Dominae

[Saint Marcus]

Seafaring is still pretty pointless.

A. there is an increased chance you end up near water, but not a guaranteed chance. Thus, if you end up in the middle of a continent, no benifits for you.
B. On small maps, you won't be able to monopolize contacts.
C. On pangea maps, seafaring is fairly pointless.
D. Even on a large continent map, or any map for that matter, the civ that builds the Lighthouse has the same benefits as you.

So what exactly is so good about it, besides cheap harbors, and using it on Archipelago maps?

Both Exp and Sea depend way too much on the setting of the map and the starting locations, and in a lot of cases are pretty pointless. Both only really come into play on huge maps, and then only certain shapes (expangea, sea:archipelago), and still depending on staring locations (island start for Exp civ means you've no use for your ability, ditto for a landlocked start for a seafaring civ).

[Dominae]

I guess we should just wait until the game comes out, then debate this some more.



Personally I consider Expansionist to be one of the top traits on Deity, assuming you're not playing a Archipelago map. Keeping up in techs early on is extremely important (as you surely know), and if your 40-turn Polytheism or whatever gambit does not work, you're basically screwed. I know this is an oversimplification, but you get my point, namely, that anything that allows you to abuse the AI in tech trading is going to be strong on Deity. Seafaring allows just that.


Dominae

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
D. Even on a large continent map, or any map for that matter, the civ that builds the Lighthouse has the same benefits as you.

And why wouldn't this be you, if you were seafaring? You should try to lock up the bonus so that you control the contacts till the late middle ages. THis lets you control the trading between continents.

Sure, this trait may be wasted on a huge pangaea, but on standard size continents it is quite competitive.

(I disagree with you strongly on Expansionistic. I think it is about the most powerful trait and I usually play on standard size continents games).

[Saint Marcus]

And why wouldn't this be you, if you were seafaring? You should try to lock up the bonus so that you control the contacts till the late middle ages. THis lets you control the trading between continents.

A. There are other seafaring civs out there too, monopolising trade between continents would be shear impossible.
B. If you have different civ traits, just build the Lighthouse and you'll have the same bonusses as the seafaring civs. Pretty lame to have a civ trait that you can easily get by building wonders. The point is, you can play any civ, and still get the Seafaring bonusses just by building the right wonder. This isn't the case for any of the other traits, and for me this places Seafaring way down the list of civ traits.

Still for me:
1. Agr
2. Rel
3. Ind
4. Exp
5. Com
6. Sci
7. Mil
8. Sea

Depending on the map size, map shape, and difficulty level of course.

[Arrian]

I was just wondering... will the 1/2 price harbors benifit transfer from militaristic to seafaring? If so, that's definitely a hit to militaristic. Not necessarily a huge one, but it's something.

-Arrian

[Wittlich]

It looks like players are still divided on what trait will be the best/worse in Conquests. This in itself, I believe, is a good thing. Conquests promises to be a very diverse game and as it stands right now, one cannot definitively say that one trait will be better or worse than another.

[realpolitic]

I'M Modding China and India to be agrocultural, if they aren't already. Bothb countries have over a billion people, and I'm sure that they're not the only nationalities that enjoy sex!

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I think an ag/exp civ would be quite nice. quick graineries with that extra food. mmm.

No, I've found that granaries are a mixed blessing. Building them instead of REXing or fighting an early war was a mistake. I'd think an ag civ would build less granaries, because the trait is self limiting.

[G' Stath]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Well, Russia isn't known for Farming or Seafaring, so Russia's traights likely to remain as they currently are.

Well, a real world America would have Industrial, Farming, Expansionist, Seafaring, Commerical, and Scientific. But that would make them no fun to play. (Too easy)

Most likely, America will be Industrial & Farming.

I think America should be militaristic/scientific, or commercial/scientific.

BTW, Byzantines are scientific and seafaring. I don't think that these traits are historically descriptive for Byzantium. Byzantines were religious more than anything else...

So, IMHO they should be religious (and not scientific) and commercial (and not seafaring). The advantage the Byzantines had in sea during their era is presented perfectly with their UU. Thus, the seafaring trait is not necessary.

[WarpStorm]

But seafaring gives commercial bonuses to those by the sea.

[Louis XXIV]

I think the commercial advantage Byzantine had by being at the end of the silk road was far superior to any it had by naval trade. It was Venice who prospered the most at sea (The leader of Venice agreed to finance the fourth crusade, but required command of the army. Then they sacked and looted Constantinople because of the commercial power of their economic rival).

[Saint Marcus]

The Persians profited a lot more from the Silk Road than the Byzantines ever did.

[UnityScoutChopper]

Saint Marcus wrote:

C. On pangea maps, seafaring is fairly pointless.

On pangea maps where you have access to the coast, seafaring civs can stick explorers in a boat or boats and voila, speedened contact with neighbors. Not so great for finding huts, but the more I play, the more I realize that for non-expansionists, the point of exploration is quick contact, not huts.

USC

[Louis XXIV]

Especially on higher difficulty levels when all you get are barbs anyway.

Seafaring has a use on Pangea if you want to attack behind enemy lines (4 movement for Galley is faster than anything else).