New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[SlowThinker]

bab 2600

It doesn't look Egypt wants to talk about security issues ... so we had to invest in our defense again.

[SlowThinker]

Kull, I would like to be informed if you got some additional information due to your repeated turn:
How did you skip the Babylonian turn? With Ctrl-N or without it?
Also it may be possible you won't be able to replicate your turn (due to different position of Bab units). (But I expect you will do the most possible.)

ST the player

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Kull
People don't vote here. Any rules based on voting are ipsofacto flawed. Any decision on adding rules is, for the same reason, flawed.

I agree with that. Voting doesn't solve the problem, nor would adding more rules.

The whole point of the exercise was to demonstrate that even though we have a HUGE number of rules, it doesn't matter since people ignore them. When I created an exercise to see if they ever WOULD be enforced, the answer was, NO.

Not a problem. Just wanted to go on record.

But if you don't voice your opinion that the request for delay is not "reasonable" then the rule cannot be enforced, as your silence implies consent or apathy.

The design of your "exercise" was flawed, and really served only to raise the stress levels for everybody.

[Zedd]

I did not mince words in the last post and so will not here. I
think it should have been very easy for both ST and Kull to say "Fine I won't attack you and you won't attack me now lets work out something more formal." But instead first Kull wanted to hassle ST and irritate him, then ST took a turn. And now we are ready for another round. I feel each side is just perpetuating a conflict and despite everyone’s efforts and for each of their claims to want to end things on a friendly note it looks that things have gone beyond game play to a personal level.

Do I think kull was right in skipping ST? I think it was childish.
I sent an email to kull also to find out if he had quit. Instead no one get a response until...."Gotcha, no turn for you."
Still nothing forbid what he did and we just HAD to have everyone punching a time clock to get the game done, I lost some trade in this as well as probably in the war that will come but I'm to tired to care. I would ask Kull to consider the lesson learned and let ST play. But I see no way to "Force" him.

Do I think ST is wrong for all his words and rules and analysis?
I think it can be a pain in the butt to have someone so analytical and so detailed playing a GAME. But I also think that ST plays fairly and would rather take a loss than cause another player to have one. I also think his thought process comes from a completely different angle than your average Joe and thus we all tend to scratch our heads and wonder what in blue blazes he is talking about.

Would I ever want to have played this game without either of these players?
NO!

But if it comes to deciding to spend the next 10 turns with each side trying to out-do the other or leaving the game I know which I would choose. If you want to kill each other in the game then go ahead. You don't want to talk to each other, don't. But lets not let this game get drawn into the gutter.

[Zedd]

And by the way, ST's response to being skipped was much nicer than mine would have been.

[Kull]

Hmmm. It seems that despite his "shock and outrage" that Egypt would think to build Sargon's Arsenal, that in fact Babylon was building it all along. Congratulations.

One problem though. Apparently in PBEM games, when two players build the same Wonder, the unlucky second in line get's no choice of what to do with his expended shields - the AI does it for you. In this case that means I am the proud owner of the world's most expensive Temple.

Lovely.

[Peaster]

Kull - Do you want someone to fix this ? I suppose one of our hex-editor wizards could do that, and IMO it would be fair.

If you agree, and nobody objects, I will wait to play my turn. I suppose a fair fix would be to remove your temple, restore the shields, and change your production. If not possible, maybe some adjustment to your gold total (1g = 2.5s) instead.

[SlowThinker]

We are accepting Egypt's congratulations complacently.
Babylon admits The Operation Sargon was a huge coordinated action of many Secret Services and diplomatic missions. The purpose was to disclose warlike intentions of Egypt.
The Immo

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Kull
One problem though. Apparently in PBEM games, when two players build the same Wonder, the unlucky second in line get's no choice of what to do with his expended shields - the AI does it for you. In this case that means I am the proud owner of the world's most expensive Temple.

I think you are mistaken. Diplosystem says you BUILD Slave Labor System.

[SlowThinker]

Temple - do you mean that 40-shield improvement or a WoW (most wow's are "temples")?

Hexediting may be done anytime, so I think Peaster can play.

[Peaster]

The Argonaut Exile Group presses their case with the Persian judge in Godin.

The Bearded Exile Group presses their case with the Persian judge in Tushpa.

After centuries of drought, the Persian population drops another 10% - despite aid from the Bearded Merchant Group.

HOWEVER, SinBrad's favorite concubine, Angelweiner, gives him a son! Ecbatana erupts in celebration! Free fish in Achaea ! Wagon loads of gold are sent to Athens and Hattas! (check your email)

[Kull]

As usual, I would ask the other members of the alliance to ignore everything ST says. The fact is that Egypt tried to build Sargon last turn (and ONLY last turn so his damned diplo system wouldn't notice). Unfortunately, he chose the same turn to do the same thing.

But that's not the point - nor is whatever my city appears to be building right now - any interested neutral party is welcome to look and they'll see that Egypt has ZERO shields accumulated in Memphis.

I spent probably around 700 gold and two caravans in order to build a temple. My bad luck that it was Egypt that got to discover the lovely quirk by which PBEM does not allow the second civilization constructing a Wonder any choice in the disposition of surplus shields.

And no, we will NOT hex edit the game to retrieve them.

However, I would just ask that from this moment forward any civ that completes a Wonder during their turn, PLEASE announce this fact so nobody else gets screwed. This is NOT a new rule - we have too many as it is - but rather a request to exhibit common courtesy to the other players.

(I don't fault ST in this case - he couldn't have known)

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Kull
...any interested neutral party is welcome to look and they'll see that Egypt has ZERO shields accumulated in Memphis.

Confirmed. Wonder was set to build. Shiny new temple was built instead. Excess shields lost. I'm sure it's quite a stunning temple though.

Originally posted by Kull
...However, I would just ask that from this moment forward any civ that completes a Wonder during their turn, PLEASE announce this fact so nobody else gets screwed....

I don't think it would help. The build order changes when the other civ completes it's production, during THEIR turn. Any announcement would come too late, unless you've got some mechanism in place to modify your builds during another player's turn.

If you want to kick yourself a bit though, if you had already owned a temple there, the AI would've switched the build to another wonder. I guess there is some preference to have certain improvements in place before building wonders.

Originally posted by Kull
And no, we will NOT hex edit the game to retrieve them.

Hey, you're a better man than I am...I'd be whining up a blue streak.

[Straybow]

Wait a minute, Civ2Dip allows you to fix the wonder production if you run it on the save before you start your turn. You get to choose a new production order for the city.

Kull, this is considered the norm for PBeM, you should get a hex-edit to fix it. If Peaster had not played I'd say to do a reload, but a hex-edit will serve without making Peaster replay as well.

In fact, I insist that no grounds for complaint or grudge be allowed here for the sake of the game. I don't care the slightest who is at fault.

A similar situation got Germanos ticked at me, if you recall. We had gone for a month and a half waiting for some player(s) turn(s), which never helps in the concentration department. When my turn finally came around it was in a haze of overtime and night shift sleep deprivation so I forgot to do the Civ2Dip fix and had a nagging feeling something was wrong for two whole turns before I realized it.


I would point out that it is perfectly normal for human players to build WoWs in one turn, with "wonder bread" and money. Only early in the game do we have cities laboring on the actual wonder for many turns.

[Zedd]

I would have to agree with the errant bowman on this issue.

You could connect with Kengal or myself for MP play and change your build cue, then maybe RobRoy could edit the file so that the shields are added in. (Wonder shields)-(temple shields)=Shields to hex in.

I don't know if anyone here knows the hex trick.