New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[Kull]

Egypt accepts the Minoan proposal as offered and utterly rejects the Babylonian attempts to modify it. Let's see who is really interested in peace.

Ramesses II

[Zedd]

Thank you Pharoh, I appreciate your willingness to work towards a peacefull resolution.

I agree that if the agreement was to leave the area south of Tel-Harari to babylon then it should be incorporated into the DMZ plan. however both sides will be faceing a loss in the area surrounding Tel-Harari and Dibshiya.
And since everyone has had so much fun making maps I took the liberty of creating another. I beg forgiveness for its crudeness, i used the "View hidden Terrain" so no other nations "secrets" would be revealed. (Though I don't think my map would have shown any.)

The red zone to the west is in hitite land AFAIK and they would have to be agreeable to this proposal as well for any type of "Patrol", or ST and Kull would have to accept the fact that a sneek attack could occur in the area.

Also I tried to be fair in the ammount of city space that unit movement would be restricted, however Mari has additional spaces where moves are restricted and Babylon has no other cities near the boarder.

[SlowThinker]

I am indeed very interested in peace and so I wouldn't refuse the proposal because of a shape of zones. But the new shape looks to be better balanced, except ...

I agree that if the agreement was to leave the area south of Tel-Harari to babylon then it should be incorporated into the DMZ plan.

Not south but east ('downstream Tigris'). IMO Egypt should be allowed to move south from Tell Hariri.

Here are some points that should be solved:
* Red zone is too narrow in the middle: units of the mediator will be blocked by ZOCs of Babs and Egys. Therefore also in the middle the red zone should be enlarged to 4 squares of width at the expense of the rose zone.
* I suppose no cities may be built in both zones, but this should be stated clearly.
* Roads in the zones should be disconnected otherwise zones have no meaning.
* I propose horses are allowed in the rose zone. They are effective for patrolling. Envoys should be forbidden.
* We should agree on number of non-C4 units of the mediator. I think 4 fast units (2 from Bab, 2 from Egy) should be enough.
* The picture should be completed also in the southern part so that it is clear where it ends.
* There should be some clear safety measures in the desert - for example no Bab units west from meridian of Dibshiya and no Egy units east from meridian of Dibshiya. Present units in the desert should be announced and leave the area as fast as possible.

[Peaster]

Curious - Would Hittite units (for example) be allowed in the red zone and/or rose zones ?

Also, I suppose caravans of all nations can pass freely thru these zones ?

[SlowThinker]

I think the red zone should be reserved only for the mediator. ZOCs of any foreign unit would limit movement of mediating units.

[Peaster]

Still just curious really .... doesn't some of the red zone belong to the Hittites ? Also, I think Zedd's original proposal only forbade (... forbidded? ... forbode?) "military units" - not vans. This is not very important to Persia though, since we do not expect any trade routes thru that region soon.

[Zedd]

I think the DMZ should only apply to Babyoln and Egypt, Hatta should not loose the use of thier land over such an agreement, and I would ask thier permission to "Patrol" the area. However if hatta agreed it would best if they either posted a unit in the area or allowed Min units movement in the area.

The decision about vans and non military units belongs to Babylon and Egypt, My proposal was intended to deny ANY unit passage through the red zone without the agreement of both nations, but the restrictions for the >3 moves only zones would only apply to military units.

The key is to have babylon and Egypt agree on a solution beneficial to each.

[Zedd]

A Couple deliveries, some city growth, and our country’s future looks bright.

We look forward to the new melenium.

Lycastus: Year's End Festival, 2601 BC

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Zedd
Hatta should not loose the use of thier land over such an agreement, and I would ask thier permission to "Patrol" the area.

The decision about vans and non military units belongs to Babylon and Egypt, My proposal was intended to deny ANY unit passage through the red zone without the agreement of both nations, but the restrictions for the >3 moves only zones would only apply to military units.

IIRC Minoans and Hitts have a 'non-ZOC' alliance and so their units wouldn't interfere.
But Eg. and Bab. non-military units shouldn't be allowed to enter the red zone since their ZOCs would hinder free movement of Minoans.

[Kull]

The second map submitted by the Minoans is totally unacceptable and reflects nothing more than the legitimization of a Babylonian land grab. Egypt likewise rejects every Babylonian attempt to modify the original Minoan proposal. The Babylonian claim to the entire Great Southern Desert south and east of Dibshiya is laughable. Egypt and other nations are free to travel in this region at their own discretion, and Babylon would be well advised not to hinder us here.

Quite frankly, Pharoah is puzzled. We earlier stipulated that Babylonian attempts to modify the Minoan proposal were unacceptable, yet the Minoans ignored our objections and immediately produced a new map which granted all the Babylonian territorial demands!

Egypt accepted the original proposal in it's entirety, and yet Babylon is to be rewarded for whining and lying and endlessly seeking to expand at the expense of it's neighbors? Pharoah asks once again - who's example is most indicative of a nation seeking peace?

[SlowThinker]

The second map submitted by the Minoans is totally unacceptable and reflects nothing more than the legitimization of a Babylonian land grab.

No problem, we thought the original Minoan map was a bit unfair and all the disputable land should be added to the red zone, but we also stated Babylon 'wouldn't refuse the proposal because of a shape of zones'.
Anyway the Minoan proposal is a security measure, not a demarcation of the land.

Egypt accepted the original proposal in it's entirety, and yet Babylon is to be rewarded for whining and lying and endlessly seeking to expand at the expense of it's neighbors?

We can hardly speak about an entirety of the Minioan proposal because it is not complete:
The 'original' picture needs to be completed south, north and west.
Several details must be worked out: for example the mediating units wouldn't be able to move because of ZOC's of Egyptian and Babylonian units in the rose zone. Could Pharaoh go through Babylonian remarks (marked by asterisks) and comment them?

The Babylonian claim to the entire Great Southern Desert south and east of Dibshiya is laughable. Egypt and other nations are free to travel in this region at their own discretion, and Babylon would be well advised not to hinder us here.

It looks Pharaoh has problems with reading Babylonian messages. Pharaoh didn't notice our words 'for example' and 'clear safety measures'? Conversely we didn't tell anything about territorial 'claims'. We proposed our units wouldn't move south and west from Dibshiya, but we will accept any reasonable idea how to assure a security of cities adjacent to the desert. Maybe in place of posting harsh and empty words Pharaoh could send his own proposal?

[Zedd]

The second map submitted by the Minoans is totally unacceptable and reflects nothing more than the legitimization of a Babylonian land grab. Egypt likewise rejects every Babylonian attempt to modify the original Minoan proposal. The Babylonian claim to the entire Great Southern Desert south and east of Dibshiya is laughable. Egypt and other nations are free to travel in this region at their own discretion, and Babylon would be well advised not to hinder us here.

Quite frankly, Pharoah is puzzled. We earlier stipulated that Babylonian attempts to modify the Minoan proposal were unacceptable, yet the Minoans ignored our objections and immediately produced a new map which granted all the Babylonian territorial demands!

Please Pharoh don't mis-interpret my actions. I do not favor one side or the other in this but want for Egypt and Babylon to be equally satisfied with a compromise. However this means each side will be Equally Un-happy about some aspects of any proposal.
Since Babylon was th only one to express any grivence thiers was the only ones I attempted to address, now that I know you have greivences to express I would like to hear them and try to help with the compromise.

[Zedd]

Since in studying the maps the only big difference I see is the land south east of Tel harari, I took the liberty of again employing our crayon artist.

The first map had the DMZ line 2 tiles SE of Tel, the second had it on the city limit, so I took middle ground and left 1 row there.

Also I did take Babylons suggestion and picked two points and just suggested a strait line south for a continued DMZ. However the hatched areas are the only ones I propose to patrol as the areas south are vast and little polulated. Becouse of the lack of patrols I made the DMZ wider and picked two arbitrary points that just looked good on the map to head south. I do hope to get suggestions on those.

I would again propose that we not allow 3+ move units within two spaces of the red zones.

[Kull]

Egypt accepts the latest map from the Minoans. Other elements are subject to negotiation. However. In Pharoah's experience, the Great Liar of the South seeks to hide his true motives behind a sandstorm of words, so we insist that the final terms be few and the language simple. For example:

1) The Hatched Red Zone is reserved for use by the designated Minoan patrol troops.

2) Babylonian and Egyptian forces found within this zone are subject to immediate destruction.

3) If both Babylon and Egypt agree, other nations may send their units through this zone following a designated path.

END. Nothing more is needed.

[SlowThinker]

Also Babylon accepts the zone lines (we suppose the rose line is 2 squares from the red line).

But the three points proposed by Egypt are absolutely insufficient. For example we would like to know what 'true motive' is hidden behind the fact Egypt doesn't need the rose zone? And so Egyptian units could 'jump' over the red zone easily?

This is our proposition of zone rules:
1) There is a rose zone 2 squares wide (I think Lycastus should mark it so that there is no confusion later)
2) No Egy/Bab unit can end its turn in the red zone. No Egy/Bab unit of movement 3+ (3 and more) and no envoy can end its turn in rose zone. Units can't stack in the rose zone.
No city can be built in zones.
No roads may be built in zones (all the current roads will be pillaged).
3) Babylonian and Egyptian forces violating rules in point 2) are subject to immediate destruction.
4) If both Babylon and Egypt agree, other nations may send their units through zones following a designated path. (except the northern part of the zones which seems to be a Hittite territory. So Hittite units should be allowed to enter there. Also Hittites must agree the zones go so much north)

Pharaoh can see all the sandstorm of Babylonian words is restrictive and security oriented. Therefore the 'hidden motive' is security of both countries.
We can easily imagine the routine words about paranoid liars now and so we can save a lot of work to Pharaoh. We would like if Pharaoh could invest saved time in something constructive - for example to comment each point 1)-4) or to change them.

I propose each side advances 1 C4 + scouts of total speed 8 (for example 2 horses) + 1 civil boat to the mediator. (I am not sure if this amount is sufficient, because the zone is quite large and C4s can't scout but they should stay somewhere in the center and to be prepared to strike at any point.)
I suppose this will be a loan and not a gift and units will be returned if the zone won't be needed later.

Again Babylon asks Pharaoh sends his proposition how to ensure peace in the desert and safety of adjacent cities. This is a very important point for Babylon.