New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[SlowThinker]

RobRoy,
Your assumptions about the PBEM procedure are correct. Minoans hit Ctrl-N and then a Hittite leader logins as Hittites.
Did you try to hit Ctrl-N / not to hit Ctrl-N at the end of the Minoan MP turn? The moment where barbs are originating could be attached to the end of a Minoan turn. (Although it would be strange).
You can also load the game as a SP game and save as a scenario. This way you can get rid of the Egyptian password and all the AIs.
2560 - barbs appear on multiples of 8 (in deity/ Raging hordes).

A hot-game: I played a hot PBEM duel with Peaster here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=133309
I attached a comparison hot-net PBEMs to this post.

[SlowThinker]

'The Euphrates Zone Borders between Egypt and Babylon' - shall it be a 'dicate' or a 'gentleman's agreement'?

In case of a dictate: I would like to gratify Pharaoh, but ... My neighbour in Ur, venerable merchant Bishtra, often views gardens of my Palace with a jealous gaze. If I agree with the Egyptian dictate then tomorrow Bishtra will occupy a half of my gardens (including the folly, since my mother-in-law came to visit and and so it is not me who uses the folly now).

In case of gentleman's agreement: I can agree. Frankly said, I don't like this agreement, so then I will send a secret expedition of Babylonian units near Mari. Egypt will reveal the expedition and will protest. I will say Pharaoh is paranoid and the agreement is null and void. Then I will propose a new gentleman's agreement with borders shifted westward.

We are more and more convinced about some shady intentions of Egypt:
* It is very interesting the "Egypt's belief in Babylonian goodwill" ended and a Pharaoh's bad mood originated just in a moment when Babylon manifested no tolerance with secret operations of Egyptian army near Babylonian cities.
* It is very interesting the 'Euphrates Zone Borders' are not always precise (for example the territory interface between Mari and Dibshiya is shifted towards Dibshiya) but they are very precise concerning the protrusion of a 'no-man's land' inward Babylon. Since no Babylonian units would be allowed to be here, this no-man's land would easily allow a large landing force from Egyptian boats to center of a circle of Babylonian cities.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...Did you try to hit Ctrl-N / not to hit Ctrl-N at the end of the Minoan MP turn? The moment where barbs are originating could be attached to the end of a Minoan turn. (Although it would be strange).
You can also load the game as a SP game and save as a scenario. This way you can get rid of the Egyptian password and all the AIs.
2560 - barbs appear on multiples of 8 (in deity/ Raging hordes).

I'm speculating that it's not so much the end of the Minoan's turn as the "End of Turn" sequence between the Minoan's and Hittite's turn. Despite the Menu Name, I don't think Ctrl-N is synonymous with "End of Turn" at all, even when done by the Minoans. They'd need to press "Enter", and the Hittites would need to be available to go next. Alternately, some third party could do this part, then deliver a file to the Hittites, but that would introduce another delay of game.

I elected not to load it up as a .scn or save it as a .sav, because I was afraid that could introduce more variables than it would to allow 2 true AI players to play between the Babylonians and the Persians. The fairly frequent death of Mitanni, though, gives me some pause...their replacement by the Aramaeans might trigger various counters to be reset. I can't remember if they always died, or mostly died, nor when.

The eight turns rings a bell, yeah, but my hordes were not consistent. So either Mitanni or something else is producing some randomness, or it IS random, or perhaps there was some barbie boat generated that I missed.

I did play 30+ turns mirroring the existing procedure (always used Ctrl-N), without implementing the extra step between the Minoans and the Hittites...never a barbie in sight. But every time I made sure I inserted the "End of Turn" sequence (by pressing "Enter" after Ctrl-N by the Minoans), I got a barbie horde in 7-15 turns. So my confidence that this is the problem is growing, since your confirmation about procedures.

Could still be wrong, though.

But I suspect the reason people have been able to get barbies generated when they've continued in some sort of other mode (whether single-player, hotseat or internet) is because suddenly some player is pressing the "Enter" key after Ctrl-N, thereby initiating the missing sequence.

[SlowThinker]

The 'end of turn' as a trigger is strange. If Minoans forget Ctrl-N and then the save is sent to Hittites then the AI gets a control over Minoans, plays units and must perform some kind of 'end-of-turn' too. But probably this 'end-of-turn' is not fully equiped (barbs are missing).
What happens if you don't MP but forget Ctrl-N on Minoans, save the game and 'send' it to Hittites?

I'm speculating that it's not so much the end of the Minoan's turn as the "End of Turn" sequence between the Minoan's and Hittite's turn.

But no ... it is ANY 'end of turn' - if you will play Hitts and Babs then the Bab 'end of turn' will generate the Barbs too (I believe).
I wonder if Barbs appear between the Minoan and Hittite turn or just after the 'end of turn'? But this can be tested with a play with a revealed map.

I elected not to load it up as a .scn or save it as a .sav, because I was afraid that could introduce more variables than it would to allow 2 true AI players to play between the Babylonians and the Persians.

But in the beginning (3490) the game was loaded as a .scn.
I mean you wash the passwords (maybe you could relocate Mitanni so that they don't die and reveal all the map), you start a new scenario, you save it as a .net game and you can start your testing.

[Peaster]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
We could wait for kengel if Peaster is slow. Otherwise ... kengel didn't say who should sub, but so I supposed it should be the most firm civ - Stray or Zedd. I guess they know at least trade issues of Greece. But if Peaster doesn't like it then it can be a neutral person.

Barbs and Mitannis - I won't veto a game change if all other players want it. But so far only Kull gave his opinion...

Barb wrath...

1) I expect to play by tomorrow morning, so let's get a sub for the Greeks. I prefer a neutral, because it seems wrong that a regular player should see all the details of another civ. But if no neutral works out, a player is OK (we've done it before). IMO Kengel will feel OK about any solution better than a Ctrl-N, and I suppose his trading partners can send instructions.

RobRoy - You said "yes!", didn't you ?

2) The Mitanni's - Not sure I understand the idea... to beef up the civ somehow, and possibly give it to a 7th player ? Maybe. I wouldn't want to be its neighbor though, and wouldn't want it promoted above 7th place among nations.

3) Barb Wrath - I will probably defer to Kull and others on this issue, if they think this would add some fun. But I haven't really missed the barb hordes myself.

[Kull]

RobRoy: Based on your analysis, I think this is a workable test:

1) Grab an earlier save game from way back when Assyria was still alive and fairly strong (war or no, it shouldn't matter).

2) Follow Slowthinkers suggestion and save it as a new scenario, thus eliminating all the passwords.

3) Play all civs in turn as human, using the PBEM mechanism. I don't think Cntrl-N matters.

4) When the Minoans finish their turn, make your next "human" play as the Civ AFTER the Hittites.

5) Since the Barbs play between 7 & 1, and with the Hittites operating under AI guidance, I'm pretty sure this will create the "end turn" situation that you surmise is necessary for Wrath to kick in. Do this enough times, I expect you'll eventually spawn a horde. I'd also bet that the hordes will cluster near civ #2.

[Peaster]

Not much to report. Persian inns and brothels prepare for bearded Hiittite merchants.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Kull
...Since the Barbs play between 7 & 1, and with the Hittites operating under AI guidance, I'm pretty sure this will create the "end turn" situation that you surmise is necessary for Wrath to kick in. Do this enough times, I expect you'll eventually spawn a horde. I'd also bet that the hordes will cluster near civ #2.

I have not tried, but can try skipping the Hittites in an earlier file, probably not today, though (I think I'm playing the Greeks, see below). But my hypothesis is that this will NOT work without a player physically pressing "ENTER" or clicking the "End of Turn" icon after his player-turn.

Also, I prefer not to load the file into a different format, save the file into a different format, hex-edit or apply any third party program to the file, or enable the cheat menu. Even though the game appears to work fine, doing any of those things make any test less valid, IMHO, because it potentially intoduce anomolies. Indeed, my original theory was that someone monkeyed with the saved games inappropriately and introduced something that interfered with barbarian generation but still allowed the game to work. CivDip being the most likely candidate. This is still a distinct possibility, BTW.

Originally posted by SlowThinker
The 'end of turn' as a trigger is strange. If Minoans forget Ctrl-N and then the save is sent to Hittites then the AI gets a control over Minoans, plays units and must perform some kind of 'end-of-turn' too. But probably this 'end-of-turn' is not fully equiped (barbs are missing).
What happens if you don't MP but forget Ctrl-N on Minoans, save the game and 'send' it to Hittites?

It's a good thought, but I suspect the system treats the end of a player-turn differently from the end of a game-year turn, regardless of whether Ctrl-N is pressed by the Minoans. But I might as well try that as well as skipping the Hittites. Or skip them too, just go Greeks to Babs. Equally, though, I suspect it will not generate barbies

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...But no ... it is ANY 'end of turn' - if you will play Hitts and Babs then the Bab 'end of turn' will generate the Barbs too (I believe).

Yes, this is my hypothesis. Assuming, just those two players, IFF the Babs depress "ENTER" to generate the game-year end of turn sequence, I believe the Hittites would eventually see barbies.

Since I really prefer to test an existing file, not something new, I'll also try to find some other way to isolate the possibility that Mitanni's death is doing something. At a minimum, it'd be interesting to see if it is truly random or if the 8 turns is real. Using the earlier file may be sufficient. Or I can probably just be more careful to watch when Kull kills them off, make sure the Aramaeans spawn someplace safe, then count from there or retest from there.

Originally posted by Peaster
...RobRoy - You said "yes!", didn't you ?

Kinda, sorta, I guess.

Since no one has forwarded a prior claim, I gather Kengel didn't specifically request that an ally or friendly player or potential sub with seniority take his turn. So absent any objection or other candidates, I'll do a turn for Greece. If people decide my nosing about so much should invalidate me, speak up quickly or just ignore the file that I'll try to post later today. If you think you've got insight into stuff Kengel wanted to do this turn e:mail me (robroy3@hotmail.com), and I might do it if it seems reasonable and not too critical. Else I'll wait for Kengel. I doubt I'll monkey with CivDip, though, unless someone gives me a really good reason to.

I'll try to resist disbanding or attacking cities whose placement offends me, since I doubt I have the capacity and it would leave most of the map empty.
But if there are any boats in danger of drowning, I plan to ignore the silly house rule that says I should try to sink them. I'll do my best to avoid other specifically prohibited exploits, but boy...some of the exploits that a couple of you are using...and you see fit to ban some relatively minor ones!? Oh, well, one man's cheesy exploit is another man's clever tactic.

[SlowThinker]

RobRoy,
I think you should rather avoid any serious action (like founding a new city, and probably a rushbuy unless it is evident kengel planned it) until you speak with kengel. IMO there is a large field how to be better than an AI and not to be lynched by kengel.
I guess there will be some plans about trade with Minoans and Hittites (and maybe others, but you will see on the map), so you should speak with them before you play.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
RobRoy,
I think you should rather avoid any serious action (like founding a new city, and probably a rushbuy unless it is evident kengel planned it) until you speak with kengel. IMO there is a large field how to be better than an AI and not to be lynched by kengel.
I guess there will be some plans about trade with Minoans and Hittites (and maybe others, but you will see on the map), so you should speak with them before you play.

Yeah, I agree. Thanks for the input.

I did the basic stuff, but I'll wait a day, I guess, before moving/doing anything with Settlers, to see if anyone else has any input. I'll err on the side of just doing improvements unless Kengel's intentions seem obvious to me (and I agree with them, of course )

So in the interim, still having a bit of free time, I did a more testing on barbies:

-I tried going through 30 turns using the current .net PBEM procedure and just going Babs-Greeks. But I never used Ctrl-N. Nothing Red appeared before I gave up.

-Then I wanted to try a hotseat save, but since that, by definition, changes the file structure, I went ahead and retested the "no Ctrl-N, Bab-Greek, .net PBEM" procedure with the fresh .SCN file. Just as I was about to give up, on the 30th turn, I got a horde (near Babylon, of course). Since I was using an earlier file, with Assyria succeeding in conquering everybody, I got Catapults and Iron Inf.

This suggests that withholding the Ctrl-N and/or skipping the Minoans/Hittites COULD be enough to trigger whatever "End of Turn" sequence might be missing. But it also reinforces the possibility that there is something corrupted in the original .net files that stunts barbies. Additionally, it calls some of my previous testing into question, somewhat, since I never went longer than 30 turns, in any tests. Unlikely, though it seems to me, could randomness be a partial explanation?

But I still think there is something significant, even "magic" about a human player pressing "Enter" in the .net PBEM procedure, since my earlier testing, pretty consistenly, generated hordes far earlier than this test, plus it did it on a file that was not monkeyed with (but was also never subjected to CivDip).

But all that could be moot, because I then did two tests on fresh files in hotseat format, and was able to generate barbies almost immediately. Going back to the 2620 file, I noticed TWO hordes within two turns, one near Hittites, one near Babylon (N.B., I only received a message for the first one). Using a 2830 file, I got pirates (this was a first) within two turns, followed by several more, and a horde on turn 9 (near the Greeks ). N.B., no player ever received any messages about the Pirates

So I think it would be far more fruitful to explore the possibilities and implications of using a hotseat format. The limited testing suggests that the barbies go after everyone they recognize as human, not just the the Hittites (and probably Minoans). Indeed, I suspect the presence of seven humans, recognized in hotseat, influences the likelihood as well as the location of generated barbies.

Anything using a .net solution, on the other hand, seems to involve some issues with the Minoans and Hittites that are probably irresolvable, even if we can isolate the somewhat conflicting results and determine what else might be at play and what exactly "Enter" and Ctrl-N do.

Again this all assumes that people WANT to reintroduce spawned barbies.

Since CivDip is still a potential issue, could some one tell me exacly what CivDip does for you that warrants allowing it to modify your save files?

FYI, I haven't seen anything that confirms anything useful about 8 turns. I'm vaguely recalling that it might just be the number of turns after a game start where random barbies COULD appear, rather than a pattern like revolution lengths.

[SlowThinker]

I guess CivDip does nothing serious and it only changes value of bytes whose effect is known and unambiguous. Like ownership of units, tech possesion, money transfer ... maybe ... also maps may be exchanged with the CivDip. This might have an effect on barbs, but I doubt it.

In deity/raging hordes the sea barbs appear in turn 16,24,32,40 etc. Overland barbs are less frequent, but I think there is a periodicity too.
You can see it if you start any game (SP for example) with a revealed map.
I wanted to try a quick test about years of origination of barbs, so I took the starting save and tried to create a new scenario with a revealed map. But the option 'reveal whole map' covered the map!
Then I tried Apollo (Journey of Herodotus but it didn't work too...

Just as I was about to give up, on the 30th turn, I got a horde (near Babylon, of course).

Did you try this turn again? If there is any periodicity then barbs should always appear this turn (though on different locations).

Again this all assumes that people WANT to reintroduce spawned barbies.

I prefer the current situation (no barbs), since I am accustomed to it and prefer not to change the game in the middle. But I don't want to spoil joy of others.

[Straybow]

My purely objective assessment is that having the barbs appearing in Hatte most of the time is a bit one-sided...

Also, I recall approaching this game with trepidation due to the Wrath setting. I think I even posted that fearsome barb pic about 20 pages back.

I'm curious, though, what slot does the Assyrian tech occupy that barbs revert to horsies and swordies when no civ holds it?

Originally posted by Peaster
Not much to report. Persian inns and brothels prepare for bearded Hiittite merchants.

Not so loud! Can't have the wives hearing that...
Ahem, brothels for the rough-cut guardsmen the merchants hire out for the long journey... yeah, yeah... that's the ticket.

[Kull]

Industrialization. I wonder if we could hex edit it over to the Barbs? I never had a Wrath game proceed far enough that Assyria was wiped out, so it was news to me about the effect on Barbs. Disappointing.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
In deity/raging hordes the sea barbs appear in turn 16,24,32,40 etc. Overland barbs are less frequent, but I think there is a periodicity too.

Land hordes definitely have some random element, in this scenario under Barbarian Wrath, at least. I believe they are always random, but can't swear. I know I've seen them start as early as turn 15 in this scenario, if it matters.

Pirate barbs do appear to be more consistent, in time, if not place, at least in the early game. In this scenario, under Wrath, I've seen them appear as early as turn 13. I know I've been hit by them in succeeding turns in single player games many times. And they have come fast and furious than in these tests when they have appeared (consistently, every turn for seven turns in the one I was counting, before I got tired of it). I'd had the impression that sea barbies became random at some point, though, but I've never subjected it to any testing. But perhaps the period changes at some point, 'cause it's looking like one turn in my tests, but that hasn't been my impression in single player, at all. Maybe period decreases, the more human players are recognized... ...that could get scary.

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...Did you try this turn again? If there is any periodicity then barbs should always appear this turn (though on different locations).

Of course, I always attempt to recreate. That's why I've been saying it's inconsistent and why I'm saying it has some random element in it (for land hordes, at least).

Originally posted by Kull
I wonder if we could hex edit it over to the Barbs?

Probably. But I seem to recall something about the barbarian "forgetting" its technologies. You could hex edit it to Mitanni though (as the successor to the colour it seems appropriate). Really you could give it to anyone, But you should probably remove another tech, if you're giving it to an active human empire, so tech costs are not impacted.

Want me to do it for the Greeks while I'm playing them? I can remove a tech that I'm sure has no more value to them. Or is Kengel liable to complain if his architecture looks different?

[Kull]

Originally posted by RobRoy

Want me to do it for the Greeks while I'm playing them? I can remove a tech that I'm sure has no more value to them. Or is Kengel liable to complain if his architecture looks different?

Gahhh! No! The Greeks with those horrible grey castles? I weep at the very thought.

If Wrath could be reactivated, then we'd have to give it to somebody, but since we're still indulging in theory, it's not an issue. I'd be surprised if the Barbs could "forget" a no-no Tech - so they might be the best candidate. Assuming it works and doesn't mess them up in any way, it might become part of a future SoG update.