New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[germanos]

Re: Re: Re: Unit and city giving

Originally posted by Kull


However, I 'd like to talk a little more about the mechanics of unit gifting. In the basic game, gifted units are teleported into the capital city of the receiving civ, yes? So that should serve as the baseline. Any variation from that will need to be agreed upon beforehand.

For example, here's the kind of "exploit" I'd like to avoid: CivA has a war going badly on his southern front. He has plenty of troops on the north border, but it will take several turns to get them to the south to stem the invasion. CivA has a bright idea and gives all his northern armies to trusted ally CivB, who immediately teleports them and gives them all back - neatly positioned near the Southern border.

I've never used the 3rd party tool that controls unit gifting (and so this may not be possible), but I'd almost prefer a rule that says if you give a unit, it transfers ownership in the EXACT location it currently occupies (which would eliminate teleporting altogether)

Units gifted through the F3 (diplomacy screen, or in other words, via contacting the AI of a Civ) will arrive in the nearest city from the city it was given from.
I dislike the teleportation of units, therefore I usually try to disallow unit gifting in PBEM's. Think of the situation that in a WW2 scenario the axis powers completely control the English channel or the Atlantic, but still reinforcements arrive in France respectively England

Since there allways seems to be a big request for unit gifting by most PBEM players, I prefer units can only be given when the two players have an MP-session, in which they will trade the units. In MP, the units stay where they are, they merely change owner. (So, that is basically what Kull suggests above)

I've only been playing PBEM's since a year, about half a dozen of them. Playing MP-sessions, to establish treaties the AI won't accept or exchange techs the AI is not willing to share, has been common in all of them (this was mainly before the advent of Yaroslav's CivDip, that basically does the same without the hassle of setting a time to do the swap).

If unit gifting is allowed, then please only via online MultiPlayer sessions. This is not a StarTrek scenario

[SlowThinker]

City giving

If we agree with Kull that the basic game serves as the baseline then we have a question if city giving may be realized as an agreed conquering of a city.
I don't have a clear opinion: but maybe it could be allowed (also because a boundary between 'agreed' and 'unagreed' may be unclear in some special cases).

[SlowThinker]

It looks our opinions are close now...
I think we should quickly agree on rules that affect our game decisions. Later we can discuss a 48/72 hours limit, obligatory reports of some events (battles) and other changes.

I updated the proposed rules:

automated settlers are forbidden (voting is 4:0 now)
Map Making propositions are inserted from other posts
renaming cities is not forbidden but must be reported
added in Reports: In SoG, the turn-based Event messages are intended for everyone, although in a PBEM only the first player sees them - hence the requirement for white player to make them public.
added in Diplomacy: Any info may be offered during diplomatic talks (except restraints related to Map Making), but any info may be false.
unit giving have been edited
city giving have been edited
added: Turn procedure: Don't open the Demographics window (by both the F11 key or the menu). If you want to see the window content then do it in a separate game load that will not be used for gameplay.

please send objections if any; concentrate especially to unit giving, city giving; add a vote to map making

please pronounce also that you agree (if you have no objections)

Edit: city giving

[SlowThinker]

house rules 2

This is a 2nd edition of proposition of house rules. Of course any rule can be the subject of debate.
Sentences are compiled from this thread, Rah and Aussie rules in MP forum etc.

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General

Settings
King, Barbarian wrath

Game speed
Will be debated later
There is now a 48 hour deadline. If you can't make it, post here, and we will undoubtedly give you some more time, if you have a good excuse. If you are late, expect your turn to have passed. Don't be shy to take your turn when the guy before you has not shown up in time.
After (or before) you do your turn try to send e-mail (or PM) to player(s) that play after you.

Turn procedure
Don't open the Demographics window (by both the F11 key or the menu). If you want to see the window content then do it in a separate game load that will not be used for gameplay.

Reloading
You can reload typos and similar mistakes ONLY under following conditions:

1.	You can take back only 1 'action'. Action is
		a movement or another order to one unit
		rushbuild
		improvement sale
2.	You didn't intend to execute that action, you did it by mistake.
3.	The action cannot be taken back if ANY kind of new information is revealed by that action (new terrain is revealed, a new unit is detected, a formerly revealed square has changed (an irrigation is built on it, a foreign city has changed size etc.)...).
4.	You can NEVER take back fortuitous actions: combats, hut popping, tech stealing etc.
5.	You must correctly repeat all actions between the last save and the mistake that is taken back. The game cannot be reloaded if there is any fortuitous action (combat, hut popping, tech stealing etc.) among actions that are to be repeated (so it is suggested to save after combats, hut popping etc.).

Getting info from saves
Revealing the starting map is legal, because a player that has already played all civs in SP games has the same info at his disposal.
Reloading/opening savefiles of passed turns in order to get some last information or to find out a detailed info about events that went between your two turns (for example who killed your unit) is legal, but you must be cautious in order to avoid the AI moves with units of other human players and reveals them to you:
In MP mode (Main Menu / Multiplayer Game / load a saved multiplayer game) you can open ONLY files that were saved right before your turn (by your predecessor) or by yourself.
It is possible to open a .net game also in SP mode (Main Menu / Load a game - but you have to change the default .sav option to .net). In this case you can open also save, other than the save from the civ that directly precedes yours: you will go to your own civ (as chosen) but since its not your turn, you will not be able to move any of your units. The player is nothing more than a bystander/onlooker.

Reports
Players are not obligated to report anything about a course of player's turn. But things that would cause an international incident in a SP game can be accomplished only under war. War can be declared both privately (by e-mail) or publicly (in this thread).
So if your unit or city dissapears you will know that the originator is one of civs you are in a war with.

In SoG scenario, the turn-based Event messages are intended for everyone, although in a PBEM only the first player sees them - hence the requirement for white player to make them public.

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Diplomacy

Diplomacy can be managed both privately (by e-mail, PM...) or publicly (in this thread).

All diplomatic arrangements (alliances, tech, unit, gold, city trading, trade agreements = to allow caravans to be delivered etc.) are allowed, but any agreements can be broken when advantageous (unlike barters) .
Any info may be offered during diplomatic talks (except restraints related to Map Making), but any info may be false.

Contact: No diplomacy until after the first physical unit contact between two civs. (But players are allowed to publicly declare their progress on the thread.)
Map making:
Slowthinker's proposition (3 votes: ST, germ, LF)
No map sharing until both civs have discovered the 'Map Making' tech, no use of map coordinates for specifying localities on the map, areas and squares can be determined using words only (for example: about 10 squares south-east from Babylon). Distances cannot be expressed punctualy: only numbers 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80 ... ('about 2', 'about 5'...) may be used.
Coordinates may be used for determining boundaries only.
Kull's proposition (1 vote: Kull)
A small narrowly defined gif showing a cool battle or a proposed border is totally acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Barters and gifts are allowed using several methods: built-in Civ2 diplomacy (F3key), online (MP) play, Yaroslav's utility, exchanging map screenshots etc. But there are some restrictions: Description of allowed ways for implementing barters/gifts:
Maps	online (multiplayer) connection, AI diplomacy (F3 key), screenshots, Yaroslav's Tool (the official name is Civ2 PBEM Diplomacy Utility) see restraints related to Map Making
Techs	online connection, AI diplomacy, Yaroslav's Tool (current version don't count with GL, so you have to pass the given tech also to the owner of the GL some way)
Gold	online connection, AI diplomacy, Yaroslav's Tool
Units please check it out	online connection (warning: units are homed to the nearest city of the recipient); obtained commodity caravans must not be delivered (they may be used only for wonder building); food caravans are OK) A given unit must not move (nor accomplish any other order) in the turn when given. notes: the current version of Yaroslav's Tool don't allow unit giving, but the new version will; AI diplomacy is forbidden because units are teleported
Cities please check it out	only agreed capture (warning: 1 citizen and some improvements may be lost); wonder trading is forbidden (you cannot pass a city with a wonder even by agreed capture)
Warning: AI diplomacy can bring problems - for example some unwanted info about opponent's civ may be revealed. Both gifts and barters and way of their implementation must be agreed by both sides before the realization.
Barters cannot be broken or crooked (unlike arrangements). For example if you agree on exchanging map screenshots then you cannot refuse to send your map after you get the opponent's one. Also the screenshot must be true (but you can blacken some areas - if you announce it).

Diplomatic contact with AI is forbidden. You may never initiate a contact and you must always refuse all diplomatic contact with other civilization (when you play your turn) UNLESS you will do something you and the human leader of that civ have agreed to.

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Tricks and ploys

Not allowed:

black clicking
(1. Right click on black area - reveals continent number - try not to look at that small numeral in the status window that represents the continent number.
2. Double click on revealed area - reveals cities (terrain help is not shown on a city) - don't double click in unknown areas
3. Left click on black or revealed area - reveals cities (map is not centered on a city) - center map by the right click only)
unsinkable boats and non-crashing aircraft
(this is done by just moving your boat/craft 1 less space than its available movement and pressing Wait followed by using the End turn keyboard shortcut)
caravan re-homing
(unlike normal units you cannot hit the 'h' key to change the home of a caravan - however the 'support from this city' option is available from within the city screen. This way it is possible to build caravans in small cities and to rehome them to large ones.)
stealing shields and immediate tech use
(The priciple resides in clicking on units in the window of supported units when Civ2 shows a city where an improvement or a non-combat unit was built:
Suppose you have several cities close to one another. If you have all units stationed in these cities hosted by the first of which (in establishing sequence), maybe you can save the maintainance shields for them by re-host units while processing cities. Here's a demonstration. You have 3 cities A B C, in which A is your first city. All of your units in cities B and C are hosted by A. You rush build non-military units or buildings in B and C so that at the beginning of the next turn you'll be sent to city screens of B and C. While in city screens, you re-host units inside cities to B and C, respectively. Since B and C are processed before A, you save the maintainance shields for those units. You then move units in B and C back to A and re-host them before moving back, so that you can save again the next turn.
Use of this trick to produce wonders, improvements and units in the same turn as discovering the requisite tech is also disallowed.)
renaming cities must be reported
automated settlers (to irrigate with no adjacent water}
blatant cheats
(revealing the map through the cheat menu, editing stats in rules.txt, reloading hut and combat outcomes, cheat-o-matic (this is a tsr that allows the game parameters to be changed on the fly while the game is running.) etc.),

Allowed:

city bribing
unit bribing
incremental buying
pre-worked settlers
food caravans (any use is allowed (except rehoming))
ship chaining (transfer cargo from ship to ship in 1 turn)
diplo-guiding (using a diplomat or spy (or other unit that ignores ZOC) to lead other units through an enemy's zones of control.)
reading 'near city' notes (to use 'near city XX' notes in a city window to locate unknown cities)

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If you break a rule by a mistake nothing horrible happens. But you have to announce it and warn other players.

[SlowThinker]

unit giving - doubled movement

I perceived a unit could move twice in a turn when given. So I added this sentence in rules:

A given unit must not move (nor accomplish any other order) in the turn when given.

[Steve Clark]

Mountain out of a molehill.

[tanelorn]

What is this? An ultra-intensive course in cheating? It might sound naive, but I had no idea of some of these cheats. I felt safer in my ignorance.

Is there a way to check for misdeeds?

BTW, what are pre-worked settlers?

[SlowThinker]

This is a 2nd version. You missed the first one.

If a settler interrupts his work then the cumulated work is stored 'in' the settler (not in the square). You can use this feature for several tricks (fast build in a dangerous area etc.).
See trick and cheats section in my signature.

Is there a way to check for misdeeds?

Do you plan to cheat?

Mountain out of a molehill.

I think these things are quite important. Take the doubled movement of given units: You patrol carefully a maginot line, but you don't notice a horde of chariots with movement 8 (or 12 if three civs are involved) that gets through.

[Steve Clark]

We were having a nice, casual (albeit slow) game of my favorite scenario. Like tanelorn, I don't what you are talking about in your very long list.

[La Fayette]

The gift of the gods to the Minoans was an early galley: not enough to rule the Mediterranean

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
We were having a nice, casual (albeit slow) game of my favorite scenario. Like tanelorn, I don't what you are talking about in your very long list.

It looks like a complaint (?).

Pls sense a situation of people that knows these tricks. I suppose you know and you use the incremental rushbuying at least. Imagine you play with people that don't know about it - and you don't know if it is ethical that you will use it and others won't.

I don't know what to do now. I don't know if you and Tanelorn are willing to learn the rules (yes?-no?). I agree with Kull we cannot force rules that weren't agreed in the beginning...
I can imagine that some people play in accordance with new rules and some don't care about them ...
...but...

The problem is that some people (for example me) like a detailed planning and many of those tricks may be done unintentionaly and can affect that planning of other humans: that problem with Maginot line is a good example.

If you don't want to learn all rules then we could select at least most dangerous ones...

[Stefan Härtel]

Ppl, I will be on the road from Monday morning to Saturday, so just skip my turn.

[tanelorn]

City of Tarsus founded. Contact with Persia and Babylon imminent.

[SlowThinker]

.

[SlowThinker]

My civilopedia says horsemen has movement 5. I thougth civilopedia reads values directly from rules.txt?