New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[germanos]

The players are (in order of the game-cycle)

Hittite = Tanelorn
Babylonia = SlowThinker
Assyria = Germanos
Egypt = Kull
Persia = Stefan Haertel
Greece = Steve Clarke
Minoan = La Fayette

I'll send you my e-mail via the PM


For Diplomacy: I encourage it, its a large part of the fun of playing MP/PBEM

I would say that practically all is allowed, except diplomacy if you haven't met in game, and/or the MapMaking issue as adressed by SlowThinker.

Alliances are allowed, tech-trading is allowed (in fact, quite some techs have been traded as we speak)

Unit gifting?
If allowed, only via MP mode. (meaning players will meet online to give units)

[tanelorn]

Downloading, I'll play my turn ASAP.
I think that when you are gifted a unit for which you don't have the tech, you get it automatically, but I haven't checked. Actually, unit gifling might be a nice way to overcome AI diplomatic deadends...

[SlowThinker]

La Fayette, I see you prefer a no-diplomacy game, but this game has run from the beginning as a diplo-game, so I think a change in the middle would not be a good idea.
But I can agree with you that a diplo-game don't show who is a good Civ2 player: even a super-player will be blown away easily if 6 civs attack him simultaneously. So you must be very polite to others . And keep cities on size 1-2 so that others know they would gain nothing from a conquest

BTW sneak-attack doesn't work in PBEM games played in .net mode, because only human defenders are affected by the sneak attack.

Your sentence about lying is leading me to add it in the text:
Rules:
All diplomatic arrangements (alliances, tech, unit, gold, city trading, trade agreements = to allow caravans to be delivered etc.) are allowed, but any agreements can be broken when advantageous (unlike barters).
Any info may be offered during diplomatic talks (except restraints related to Map Making), but any info may be false.

Please send objections if any.

Originally posted by germanos
Unit gifting?
If allowed, only via MP mode. (meaning players will meet online to give units)

maybe I should be more concrete in rules:

Rules:
Description of allowed ways for implementing barters/gifts:
Maps (see restraints related to Map Making): online connection, AI diplomacy (F3 key), screenshots, YaroTool;
Techs: online connection, AI diplomacy (F3 key), YaroTool (current version don't count with GL - the given tech must be passed also to the owner of the GL some way);
Gold: online connection, AI diplomacy (F3 key), YaroTool
Units: online connection; Yaroslav is preparing unit exchange in new version of YaroTool; AI diplomacy is forbidden because units are teleported
Cities: YaroTool (warning: you must clear the city from units and unit support before a transaction), agreed capture (warning: 1 citizen and some improvements may be lost)
Warning: AI diplomacy (F3 key) can bring problems - for example some unwanted info about opponent's civ may be revealed.
Both gifts and barters and way of their implementation must be agreed by both sides before the realization.

Please send objections if any.

Originally posted by tanelorn
I think that when you are gifted a unit for which you don't have the tech, you get it automatically, but I haven't checked.

Maybe this happens in the AI diplomacy only, but we should know (test) it ...

[SlowThinker]

Poly problems

Tomorrow I wasn't able to connect Poly for two periods.

Do others ascertain similar problems too? If yes then I have a following suggestion how to speed game up:
A player that just plays his turn is asked to e-mail the save to the successor, to e-mail a notice (without a save) to the successor of the successor, and to send the save in this thread (possibly later ifPoly not available).

If others don't have such problems then I ask La Fayette to post warnings and tanelorn to post saves not only in thread but also on my e-mail...

[Kull]

My internet connection has been totally hosed for the last 3 days, so I've missed a lot of the recent discussions:

1) SlowThinker: Very nice listing of the rules. Once we've agreed on the final set, I'll post a copy in my opening post so people can find it without hunting around (I keep an updated list of players there, too).

2) A few thoughts on some of the proposed rules:
- Unit Gifting. Don't like it. If anyone can cite historical sources in which, for example, the Assyrians permanently "gave" an army to some other civ, than maybe i'd agree to this. It just does't seem to have any basis in historical reality.
- Map Gifs. You know my opinion, but it's not that big a deal. I would like to hear from some of the other players, tho.
- Auto-settler irrigation. I think we all agree this is not a good idea.
- Reloading. I agree with your list of exceptions.
- Time Limit. Having played some other PBEMs, its safe to say that 48 hours is a VERY short period, especially now that the empires are growing. Given that we have international players in multiple time zones, and none of us want to be checking 'poly every other day, I'd propose going with a "no-notice" 72 - with time exceptions granted only to those who request them. The reality is that the fastest way to move this game along is via the PM system that germanos constantly (and rightly) begs us to follow. I wouldn't want to MANDATE the use of "it's your turn" PMs, but it's definitely the polite and courteous thing to do.

[tanelorn]

Got an event message about Poseidon giving the Minoans a fleet. Diplomatic delegations dispatched. Generally on the move.
Assyrian friend,
a) Your scouts have blocked my chariots in Lebanon for turns.
Will you let me pass, or shall we call this a border?
b) Your scouts are blocking mine in the desert. Dont worry, I am not going for the slaves, keep them.
c) Your scouts are occupying a road square in the Hittite heartlands. You are creating a traffic jam. Imagine ox-cart drivers blowing horns.... Move on, aiready.
Your turn, Slow thinker.

[germanos]

Re: Poly problems

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Tomorrow I wasn't able to connect Poly for two periods.

Do others ascertain similar problems too? If yes then I have a following suggestion how to speed game up:
A player that just plays his turn is asked to e-mail the save to the successor, to e-mail a notice (without a save) to the successor of the successor, and to send the save in this thread (possibly later ifPoly not available).

If others don't have such problems then I ask La Fayette to post warnings and tanelorn to post saves not only in thread but also on my e-mail...

I have difficulty accessing Poly as well

[tanelorn]

What do you mean "tomorrow I wasn't able"????
You haven't discovered time travel, have you????

[SlowThinker]

It looks only you discovered it already . No other people noticed it .

[SlowThinker]

.

[tanelorn]

The original "Time machine" movie was on TV today (not the crappy romantic remake) so there you are.

[SlowThinker]

rules

Originally posted by Kull
Unit Gifting. Don't like it. If anyone can cite historical sources in which, for example, the Assyrians permanently "gave" an army to some other civ, than maybe i'd agree to this. It just does't seem to have any basis in historical reality.

1. Concerning history
I think we cannot try to copy historical facts to Civ2 diplomacy. Imagine that you find out that in history Greeks never payed or gifted any gold to Babylonians and Greeks got only pottery from Hittites ... and you want to force these rules in our game...
We simply write a new history.

2. Concerning gameplay
Unit gifting looks as a similar action to gifting of gold, techs, cities...but...
The most different item is Tech gifting: unit or gold is 'moved' to another civ, but techs are 'copied'. So first I would question Tech gifting.
I can agree that Unit gifting AND City gifting is different from Gold gifting in one aspect: it allows a civ to get a position in a very far part of world without need of moving there. Although I don't think this is a problem, I could imagine an additional rule: If civ A pass a city or unit to civ B then the submission must occur besides an existing city or unit (it takes the new unit or city over) of civ B. The game might look a little bit more natural, but on other side any additional rule means a complication...

I agree with La Fayette that we can play a diplomacy game or a non-diplomacy game but nothing between. I think Unit giving is part of Civ2 diplomacy and I would consider strange to exclude a part of diplomacy without a good (gameplay-related) reason.
Conclusion: I think Unit giving should be preserved. But I could vote (or be neutral) for the rule that requires to take units over.

---

I perceived that there might be some strange things with city giving: for example a city could be 'lent' to a civ with Pyramids before growth and then taken back. Or it could be lent to a civ with Sun Tzu before new unit is finished.
Your opinions?

[SlowThinker]

translocated workers

AI changed workers (to max. food) in one of my cities. I thought only production may be changed . And it happened between Greek and Minoan turn . Greek save is OK, Minoan isn't.

[germanos]

Re: translocated workers

Originally posted by SlowThinker
AI changed workers (to max. food) in one of my cities. I thought only production may be changed . And it happened between Greek and Minoan turn . Greek save is OK, Minoan isn't.

very odd indeed.
I have been experiencing the same thing at the imperialism 1870 game at CFC. Nobody seems to know how and why these changes occur, and nobody seems to have experienced it before...

[germanos]

Re: translocated workers



My city workers have been replaced as well, like SlowThinker described…

In this case, the change has taken place during the Babylonian turn


Fiddling around, I have been able to restore production in one of my cities, but not in another. To do so, I have exploited a bug in the game.

Doing so, I was able to restore production in Nineveh, and thus the unit that was supposed to be finshed this turn, gets indeed finished.
With your permission, I would like to play from the 'restored' save, instead of the messed up one.


My Civ is not passworded, as far as I'm conceirned everybody is free to check Assyria's production in my 3110BC save against the Assyrian production in Babylons 3100BC save., if you feel something fishy is going on. Preferably ask a friend to check.
For those playing in this game, who want to see what devestation this weird worker-allocation problem can cause, feel free to check my saves in the imperialism game at CFC.

It's only now that i'm experiencing this bug in this game as well, I've discovered the F1 bug as described above, in a desperate effort to find ways to bypass this problem.

I'm curious if SlowThinker and/or Steve have used Yaroslav's Utility (or any other) during their turn that might have had any influence on the save.

I'll post as soon as I've had some feedback on the issue of '(partially) restoring' my production orders.

Yours, germanos.