The Distant Rumblings of War!

[curtsibling]

On inspection - I now see what you mean, PieH!
I am going through the dates now and fixing things up!

[curtsibling]

@PieH:

Here's a chart to list the turn, date and what event happens at that time.

=================================================

Turn: 1 Date: June 1941 Event: Scenario Start
Turn: 7 Date: December 1941 Event: Load Winter 41 Files

Turn: 8 Date: January 1942 Event: Winter 1941-42
Turn: 11 Date: April 1942 Event: Load Summer 42 Files
Turn: 12 Date: May 1942 Event: Summer 1942
Turn: 19 Date: December 1942 Event: Load Winter 42 Files

Turn: 20 Date: January 1943 Event: Winter 1942-43
Turn: 23 Date: April 1943 Event: Load Summer 43 Files
Turn: 24 Date: May 1943 Event: Summer 1943
Turn: 31 Date: December 1943 Event: Load Winter 43 Files

Turn: 32 Date: January 1944 Event: Winter 1943-44
Turn: 35 Date: April 1944 Event: Load Summer 44 Files
Turn: 36 Date: May 1944 Event: Summer 1944
Turn: 43 Date: December 1944 Event: Load Winter 44 Files

Turn: 44 Date: January 1945 Event: Winter 1944-45
Turn: 47 Date: April 1945 Event: Load Summer 45 Files
Turn: 48 Date: May 1945 Event: Summer 1945
Turn: 55 Date: December 1945 Event: Load Winter 45 Files

Turn: 56 Date: January 1946 Event: Winter 1945-46
Turn: 59 Date: April 1946 Event: Load Summer 46 Files
Turn: 60 Date: May 1946 Event: Summer 1946
Turn: 67 Date: December 1946 Event: Scenario End

=================================================

I'll quickly run through the events and make sure everything matches up.

[PietH]

events 3 gives Turn 18
events 5 gives Turn 30
events 7 gives Turn 42
events 9 gives Turn 54
events 11 gives Turn 67

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by PietH
events 3 gives Turn 18
events 5 gives Turn 30
events 7 gives Turn 42
events 9 gives Turn 54
events 11 gives Turn 67

All fixed now!

Events 3 now gives Turn 19.
Events 5 now gives Turn 31.
Events 7 now gives Turn 43.
Events 9 now gives Turn 55.
Turn 67 is Dec 1946, when the scenario ends.

[PietH]

In my game as the french I saw the map being more or less the same from winter '42 to end of 1946. Russia held on to the Leningrad, Moscow, Sevastopol line, but couldn't take back any lost ground. The allies took north africa, but were kicked out of Italy. Normandy was a disaster as well, desperately trying to hold on to one or two footholds, but they were driven back into the sea in the end.

Funny thing was that things started moving AFTER 1946. In 1947 the Germans took Leningrad, Moscow, Gorky. The German superweapons were in full effect and Russians were losing badly. Of course I could have kept going for a long time to see if the Russians would be defeated all together, but it's time for me to play a real game now.

[curtsibling]

Sounds interesting!

Do you think weapons like the SU-85 mobile gun and JS-2 tanks should be more lethal?

Perhaps the Russians need a larger boost after 1942...

I have an idea...!
Maybe at the Summer message of 1943, a large force of
Russian troops/tanks can be generated, and this could
help the Sovs gain some ground.

It could be randomly placed each time, so the German
player does not kn ow what to expect. Might try that...

[PietH]

I think the units are balanced enough. I think the real problems lies in trying to tweak the game to be more or less historically accurate for AI civs, but also a challenge for a human player on either side. That's a mission impossible. If you give me a large force of extra troops, I'll walk straight to berlin in a few turns. But the AI will waist most of it and gain a few cities.
That's why a scenario like RedFront is Russian play only: if you play as the germans you'll win in two turns.

But is it possible to give a civ an extra boost when it's played by the AI, but not so (or less so) when a human is playing that civ?

Just started a game as the allies. They really should start of having the AA tech. I lost La Valleta in the first turn since it had no AA.

[curtsibling]

Perhaps a fighter squadron or two would be more useful?
Historically correct too, given Malta's heroic resistance.

[PietH]

Originally posted by curtsibling


All fixed now!

Events 3 now gives Turn 19.
Events 5 now gives Turn 31.
Events 7 now gives Turn 43.
Events 9 now gives Turn 55.
Turn 67 is Dec 1946, when the scenario ends.

so when is the fix available?

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by PietH
so when is the fix available?

Right now, PieH!

[GhostOfDisco]

My latest playtest

I've been playing as the Allies, and it's early 1944 already...

Well, I can definitely tell you that the AI is definitely aggressive. As in my previous playtests, I haven't had that many encounters with Panzers, but I think this is primarily because the majority of the Panzer units are in the East, fighting Stalin. (I also think it might be because the Bf 109 is in the "Knight" slot, meaning that the computer will probably make that at the expense of everything else. I'll have to look.) Nevertheless, the AI has liked to attack me, especially the Italian and Vichy civs for some reason. I know when driving into France and even Germany, I've had to deal with Italian and French generals, artillery and armor, even if it means crossing the Alps! Lately I've been in a race to get as many Nazi-held Eastern European cities I can before the Soviets get them, and I've done pretty well. I've taken most of the Ukraine, although the Commissars managed to take hold of Kiev and another city, but they're isolated (somewhat) because of my move westward. I'm hoping this isolation will encourage Stalin to give up all Soviet-held Ukraine the next time he meets Churchill and FDR to discuss postwar Europe.

There have been two things that have bothered me about the North African campaign: one - it's confinement to the coast (I basically just gulp city after city and move my tanks (and infantry along) and two - the razing of cities. Too many cities along the coastal highway become nothing when I take them. Not only do I not like razing cities in general (I prefer to capture them), but it also slows down troop movement, as units suffer the loss of a road. I know from playing this and other scenarios (my Sobieski one sometimes suffers from city razing too), I know that besides more civs, one thing I'd change to Civ 2 would be to give an option (at least for custom games and scenarios) to make cities unrazable (no matter how fierce the battle is, they'll still have a population of at least 10,000! )

As for the road thing, it is true that that one road was historically the only one in the region (so to speak). Is there any incentive to make the AI aggressive/manuvering any?

I also like it that the Vichy and Italian governments are kept in play by the Engineer units you've placed somewhere on the map. When I quit, I got the reinforcements from the Invasion tech, but there's some Italian-controlled Nazis south/east of Rome that will probably cause me some trouble. (Though, ironically, in my playtest, Italy has been somewhat of the "Soft Underbelly" of Europe - I've had to fight to take the cities, true, but it's mainly served as a highway to get my Middle Eastern and African forces into Europe. )

Well, all Hitler has left is Norway (if he's still alive, that is), and I've yet to liberate Romania (I decided it was best if I get as far eastward as I can first).

[curtsibling]

Excellent update, GhostOfDisco...!
Glad you are having a lively time, and that the AI is making it interesting for you!

The razing factor can be annoying too, it sometimes means a silly city is founded by
the AI somewhere obscure too, preventing a rebuild! It would be good to have the same
option that is in CIV4 and CIV4, to raze or not to raze...



PS
Don't give Stalin any room to wriggle during that peace conference!

[PietH]

I think GoD is right about the agresiveness of the french and italian civs. It seems they are more so then the germans. Could that be, or just imagination?

I'm playing a more or less historically accurate game as the allies. That means no large scale invasions before the event driven invasions. See if I can manage to get to Berlin and beyond when starting in june '44.

[curtsibling]

Great stuff - Good luck!

I have found when playing as Germany or Romania, that the other Axis seem to not resist too much...

My guess that it's a strange AI thing, based on what the amount of units and cities owned, etc.

[AGRICOLA]

I finally finished the German 1941 summer campaign just before the first Russian blizzard made movement impossible. It took a while as the scen is large and intricate and the logistics complicated.

Also, my beloved ODDJOB, which began life as a 800kHz PC with a crappy Windows Millenium OS, lost both its floppy and CD drives and had to be put out to pasture.
I've been installing all my stuff on ODDJOB II, a 3GHz XP speed merchant. Takes much time to get it exactly right.


In the following quotes, CS is curtsibling and A is yours truly

CS: "I will make the Stock Exchange available to them in the next update, in order to help make some war-chest cash".

Germany can already build Stock Exchanges in my download.

A: - The only ground attack unit that is any good is the StuG III. These will be built with all possible haste. The useless Field Arty will be disbanded ASAP.
CS: - I reckon the Artillery is OK when up against tanks, I did not want to make it too over-powered...Any suggestions to make it more useful?

Because of Sun Tzu, Germany fights with vet ground units:

StuG III has A/D=13/2 and Mv=3 which become A/D=19/3 and Mv=3 for vets.
Artillery has A/D=13/1 and Mv=1 which become A/D=19/1 and Mv=1 for vets.

In my opinion, the vet numbers make the StuG III infinitely superior to Artillery. I really see no way to make Arty useful, short of giving it Mv=2 so that, when it moves up to a city, it does not have to wait a turn before attacking.

A: - Science will be given a low priority because almost none of the more advanced ground or air units offer a sufficient improvement to warrant rushing research.
CS: - Any suggestions to rectify this? Should late war planes and tanks be tougher?

The problem is one of cost effectiveness.
In the following tables
XXX = have some of these units at the start but cannot build more
194X = earliest year when unit can be built
X techs = number of new techs that need to be discovered in order to build, 0 techs means that unit is buildable at start


Assault Gun ........ nil, 0, 2.,0, 13a,2d, 5h,2f, 10,0 1941 XXX
Bison .............. nil, 0, 2.,0, 11a,1d, 8h,1f, 10,0 1941 XXX
StuG III ........... nil, 0, 3.,0, 13a,2d, 5h,2f, 10,0 1941 0 techs
Bison .............. nil, 0, 2.,0, 11a,1d, 8h,1f, 10,0 1941 1 tech
Jagdpanzer IV ...... nil, 0, 3.,0, 13a,2d, 6h,2f, 12,0 1941 5 techs

Fighter ............ nil, 1, 10.,1, 3a,3d, 8h,1f, 10,0 1941 XXX
Bf-109 ............. nil, 1, 10.,1, 4a,3d, 8h,1f, 11,0 1941 0 techs
Me-262 ............. nil, 1, _8.,1, 5a,5d, 8h,2f, 20,0 1941 6 techs
Me-1101 ............ nil, 1, 12.,1, 7a,7d, 8h,2f, 25,0 1946 6 techs

Bomber ............ nil, 1, 12.,2, 12a,1d, 8h,1f, 16,0 1941 XXX
Ju-87 Stuka ....... nil, 1, _8.,1, _8a,1d, 8h,2f, 13,0 1941 0 techs
Ju-88 ............. nil, 1, 12.,2, 13a,1d, 8h,1f, 17,0 1941 0 techs
Fw-190 Jabo ....... nil, 1, 10.,2, _5a,4d, 8h,2f, 14,0 1941 1 tech
Do-335 ............ nil, 1, 10.,2, _9a,2d, 8h,2f, 16,0 1941 1 tech
Ho-229 ............ nil, 1, 16.,2, _7a,5d, 8h,2f, 20,0 1945 1 tech
Ar-555 ............ nil, 1, 18.,2, 15a,4d, 8h,2f, 28,0 1946 4 techs


For assault guns, StuG III is the only unit that can be built from the start. The Bison, which comes after the StuG III, has less performance and I see no reason for building any. The Jagdpanzer IV has a marginally better performance than the StuG III but is it really worth researching 5 techs and paying 20 extra shields for a minor improvement in performance?


For fighters, one is stuck with the BF-109 because its performance improves with time. For example, by 1945, the Bf-109 has A/D = 5/5, very close to the Me-262’s A/D = 6/6 at the same time. Is the difference worth the cost of researching 6 techs and then paying nearly twice as much for the jet? IMHO, players can call it either way. Also, Germany starts out with 39 Bf-109’s and, unless they are used foolishly, most should survive for years and form the backbone of the Luftwaffe fighter force.


For bombers, the Ju-87 is the only decent multiple attack a/c until the Me-1101 comes along in 1946. Similarly, the Ju-88 is the only real bomber until the jets come along in 1945 and 1946. The only alternatives, the FW-190 and Do-335, are fighter-bombers that don’t fit into my scheme of things.

I don’t want to suggest various changes because I’m quite happy with things as they are and changing any German unit would create a cascade of changes to other units.

A: - It would be very helpful and useful to see casualties for all countries, not just Germany's allies.
CS: - Not sure how to show this - Is it tied to any of the Labels/Pedia/Describe files?

I know diddly squat about how to do it but in Techumseh’s Frederick the Great there is no diplomacy but every Defense Minister’s casualty report includes all other civs. His expert advice should be able to resolve this.

A: - Want the first turn money bug fixed?? CS: - Yes please! If you grab the zip attached, it has the latest Save and SCN files

The best way to do this would be for you to e-mail me the .scn file, the development file or both at the end of your day. I will have them back to you by the next day.



ADDITIONAL COMMENTS

George Patton is reputed to have said "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." I would paraphrase that as "I would rather have 2 enemy civs than a dumb ally."
The Romanians in the Balkans and Ukraine, the Italians in North Africa and the Finns in the northwest Soviet Union do damnably little for the German cause except get in the way, block roads and make general nuisances of themselves.
How about a bit of optional diplomacy so that one can tell the louts to get their units back to where they belong so the Germans can carry on their war with the Soviets and Allies in peace and quiet?


Winter ranges of aircraft are too short to ferry some of them, especially Stukas. Why not make a/c too weak to be effective for fighting but not alter their movements. I would have lost some a/c in the summer-winter changeover if I hadn't checked RULES2 before November 1941. Normally I would have had some Ju-88's and FW-190's out on recce flights to the limit of their ranges.
I had problems with the Stuka and the Bf-109 on the airfield near Helsinki at the start of the scen. They have no place to go until the Germans capture Riga and Tallinn.


The number of Engineers/Laborers generated by EVENTS is adequate for the smaller civs but not so for the vast German and Soviet empires. I did not receive either type of unit during the summer of 1941. I would suggest changing the RANDOMTURN denominator from 6 and 5 to 2 and 2 for both the Soviets and the Germans.


@curtsibling
The 1941 summer campaigns are finished in in the east and in Africa and, in time honoured fashion, the Wehrmacht is going into winter quarters. The 5 R’s will occupy the next 4 months: Rest, Recreation, Repair, Replacement and Rush building units for the 1942 campaign.

The German situation at the end of November 1941 is shown on the attached map. I’ll be sending you the OPSUM and the 6 summer saves in case you want to check out how the Jerries managed Barbarossa.

Very interesting scen so far.