Jan III Sobieski scenario

[GhostOfDisco]

And here's a preview of some more units: Wallachian light cavalry and Brandenberg infantry and dragoons:

(Note: I got the Brandenberg uniforms from the first three plates shown on this page of Prussian uniforms. Not sure if the infantryman's hat is a "French/Imperial" hat or a "Swedish" one (as in the TYW units where I got the hat), and I don't know any Brandenberg cavalry uniforms save the dragoons (at least, since they carry a rifle/carbine, I think that's what they are), but still...)

[Hans99]

Found this cool photo of the "Angel Plate Mail" from the polish cavalary.
Looks really impressive, so i thought i'll share it with ya in the forum.

[GhostOfDisco]

Bad news: The PC side is ... well, it's not pretty. Good news: none of my Sobieski stuff is lost and I managed to make this Swedish dragoon (who apparently hasn't changed outfits since the 30 Years' War! )

[McMonkey]

Hopefully this info gleaned from the Osprey 'Vienna 1683' book may be of use:

Ottoman Army made up of five elements:

- Kapu kulu 'Servants of the Porte' The standing army
- Toprakli 'Landed Ones'
- Serhadd kulu 'Border Provinces' Irregulars
- Yerli kulu Local troops raised by government administrators
- Auxiliaries from nations who paid tribute to the Porte

Kapu kulu:

Topcu gunners
Lagunci sappers and miners
Cebeci armourers and munition carriers
Sipahi horsemen
Janissaries

Toprakli:

Territorial Sipahi Heavy Cavalry
Cebeli less-well-off noble cuirassiers

Serhadd kulu:

Gonullu mounted volunteer heavy cavalry
Beli light horse
Deli mounted rangers
Azab Infantry and garrison troops
Seymen peasant militia
Muselem pioneers

Yerli kulu:

Tufekci fusiliers
Icareli border fort gunners

Auxiliaries:
Crimean Tartars, Moldavians, Wallachians and in 1683 Magyar Rebels

There are lists of numbers and illustrations that I can scan and add if that would be useful.

[GhostOfDisco]

There are lists of numbers and illustrations that I can scan and add if that would be useful.

Sure. That'd be great!

[GhostOfDisco]

Been doing some work regarding roads and such. I've got a few of them done (mostly in the west), basing my work on the road map of Frederick the Great (the scenario, not the man). I've looked a bit at the road map from Bonaparte 3, but I'm not sure how accurate it is (there seem to be too many roads in the Ukriane, for one thing). I've also been looking at Casus Belli, but I'm not so sure about the roads (some seem to be leading from a city to ... nowhere.)

But anyway, work is being done. And, for your enjoyment, here's all the units I've got in the game right now:

[GhostOfDisco]

Today I modified the unit names, so, for example, instead of "Polish Hussars" you get "Hussars [Pol]," or something like that. Why? Because when you have, say, "Brandenberg Brandenberg Infantry," it does seem a bit redundant. :P

(Though the names of the "vassal" units have stayed, so that the civs will be able to be in control of "Imperial Saxon Infantry" and "Ottoman Transylvanian Cavalry," to name but two.)

Also been wondering about the Scanian War (a war between Sweden and Denmark that began in 1675, for those who don't know). I haven't done all that much research on it, but I think the land action happened on Scania (hence the name ) and thus within the map. Simulating at least this part would be easy; generate some barbarian "Danish" units in southernmost Sweden. However, if it should happen is not so clear; I believe that Sobieski had a coalition of nations, namely France, the Ottoman Porte, Sweden, and of course Poland itself, that would start the war (or something) so that he could wrest Prussia away from Brandenberg and establish his son as Duke of Prussia, therefore ensuring (to some extent) a Sobieski dynasty and thus help stabilize the "anarchic" Polish republic. Unfortunately for Sobieski, the plan went awry when the Turks decided to invade Poland, thus the lost chance to take Prussia. I think at least one historian said that Sweden "dutifully" invaded Brandenberg's territory, but I can't be sure. (The chance of such an invasion is the main reason I kept Straslund in the map!) Would the Scanian War have happened even without the secret Sobieski plot. Maybe some experts on Danish and/or Swedish history can comment.

Also realized a funny thing about history - by the time of the Northern War; all the nations involved that are also in my scenario (Sweden, Russia, Prussia, Poland) all went through some major change (Swedish military uniformity, Peter the Great's military reforms, Frederick William's son crowning himself King of Prussia, and Poland's election of a Saxon monarch) that means the uniforms of that conflict differ from those of my scen's time.

Attached below is an alternative Swedish Curiasser, derived from a depiction of such a cavalryman in a depiction of the Battle for Warsaw during the Deluge. Don't know how accurate he is, or if he's in the same time period, but he's from the 1650s, which is pretty close to when my scenario begins...

[GhostOfDisco]

Oh! Something I've been meaning to ask but never remembered when posting ... does anyone know what the respective proportion was of Poland and Lithuania regarding army size and/or population? I've got an idea of how to compose the army, but now just how to split it between the army of the Crown and that of the Grand Duchy.

[Cyrion]

Very nice unit set you have there!

[McMonkey]

The Polish-Lithuanian army

The army of this dual monarchy was an intriguing mix of the western and eastern approaches to war. Although John III Sobieski was head of state in Poland and Lithuania, the two nations maintained separate military structures - however the internal organization of the armies, their tactics and equipment were the same. The standing army in 1683 was not large, mustering some 11,000 men; this was augmented in time of war by the General Ban - the raising of the nobles - although they did not have to serve outside the national borders, and if there was no money to pay them they were perfectly entitled to go home. The Polish-Lithuanian army recruited by various other means. Many were noble volunteers, who responded to the law that no man could hold public or ecclesiastical office unless he had served in the armed forces. The levy or conscription was also used, which augmented the infantry, with the state providing one sabre, musket and axe to one man in 12, who then became a foot soldier. Other methods comprised traditional recruiting, paid for by papal subsidies and the royal chest; the hiring of mercenaries; mobilizing vassals, such as the Cossacks; and, finally, relying upon allies, like the Tatars.

From the Osprey's Vienna 1683

[McMonkey]

I would not use the roads in Bonaparte III as a guide as I did no research into them whatsoever!

I will scan some of the units from the Osprey book to illustrate the style of the Imperial forces at the time. They appear to be more uniformed, like the units in Casus Belli, than some of the 30YW units you currently have. I think it was a transitional period in western armies. Generally though the units look great and will make for a very colourful scenario!

OOB info being typed up now

[McMonkey]

IMPERIAL AND POLISH FORCES

OUTSIDE THE CITY (UNTIL 14 JULY)

Prince Charles Sixte of Lorraine

Infantry: 21,000
Cavalry: 11,000
Hungarians: 5,000 (Esterhazy)
Total: 37,000 men

INSIDE THE CITY (14 JULY-12 SEPTEMBER)

Ernst Rudiger von Starhemberg

Infantry: 72 companies
Cavalry: 1 regiment of cuirassiers
City Guard
Total: c. 12,000 men

RELIEVING FORCE AT THE BATTLE OF KAHLENBERG

John III Sobieski, King of Poland

Imperial

Duke of Sachsen-Lauenburg

Infantry: 7 battalions
Cavalry: 42 squadrons

Saxon
John George III, Elector of Saxony

Infantry: 6 battalions
Cavalry: 12 squadrons

Bavarian
Maximilian II Emanuel, Elector of Bavaria

Infantry: 8 battalions
Cavalry: 19 squadrons
Circle (Kreis) troops

The Prince of Waldeck

Infantry: 6 battalions
Cavalry: 7 squadrons

Polish troops
Stanislaus Jablonowski, Great General of the Crown

Infantry: 3 brigades
Cavalry: 3 brigades
Hussars: 3 brigades


OTTOMAN FORCES

AT THE SIEGE OF VIENNA
Kara Mustafa, Grand Vizier

Right wing
Beylerbeyi of Diyarbekir, of Aleppo, of Anatolia

20 Ortas
5 x 8-24-pdr cannon
20 smaller artillery pieces

Centre
[B/]Kara Mustafa, Janissary Aga and the Beylerbeyi of Rumelia[/B]

Dismounted Portal and Provincial forces
5x 8-24-pdr cannon
20 smaller artillery pieces

Left wing
Beylerbeyi of Timisoara, of Sivas

20 Ortas and 500 technical troops
5 x 8-24-pdr cannon
20 smaller pieces

Totals: in the siege lines identified above - 15-20,000 men
To cover the siege and raid the countryside - c. 70,000 men

[GhostOfDisco]

Thanks!

I've also done some work on the game texts (though not everything I want yet.) I know that if your diplomatic reputation gets too low, and you offer a treaty or something, then the foreign diplomats start quoting Taras Bulba.

Also, I think I know the rough population of the populations vis-a-vis Lithuania and Poland, so now I think I know how to divide the Polish army.

[jim panse]

Hehe, sounds fun

Should you need some photographs from original places in Vienna (like what the place Kara Mustapha's tent stood looks now, let me know ;-)

[Cyrion]

Edit: how stupid can I be at times? I'll leave for your entertainment what I had written below, before I noticed there was a slight temporal misunderstanding...

There is a 45 minutes documentary on tv tonight on the 1529 Siege of Vienna (Hannes Schuler, Germany, 2006).

I'll record it, check what it contains and come back if some info could be of interest for you (you might already know its full content, though).