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  • Jan III Sobieski scenario


    As I have mentioned in some other threads, I've decided to eventually make a scenario based on the reign of Polish king John III Sobieski. Now, given that my US Civil War 2013 scenario is still not completed, and that scenarios can take a while, it may be some time before this thing is through. This doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though.

    So, without further ado, some thing's I've considered:
    • When should the scenario begin? Sobieski's reign lasted twenty-two years, which seems a long enough time for a good scenario (especially when dividing the years into months for turns), but Sobieski's military career began a good time before that, including helping kick the Swedes out of Poland and fight the Turks. So I'm not sure exactly when to begin the scenario. Any help?
    • I've decided to make the Polish government a Republic. Why?
    • The Polish government was a quasi-constitutional monarchy at this time (the "nobles' democracy"), including the fact that the Voivods held considerable power for a good amount of time (though it doesn't seem so during this time - or does it?) and Civ 2 decribes its "Republic" government as a collection of autonomous city-states who chose to form a loose alliance or something. So I think it sorta fits.
    • The unhappiness factor of the military units (which I might eliminate with Women's Suffrage - any idea of what that wonder could be?) as well as the support factor might illustrate the difficulty in raising an army under the Golden Liberty, which I think would be realistic.
    • Likewise, the interference of the Sejm (Senate) in Poland's foreign policy would seem realistic, and realistically limit the King's power.
    • Poland called itself a Republic during this time.
  • What kind of tech tree should I have, if any? Military and social reforms seem on the list. But what kinds? I know Sobieski tried to reform the Polish state into a monarchy more like the absolutist ones in Western Europe (like France), but was there a possibility of reforming the Sejm into a majority-vote system rather than the infamous libretum veto? (As someone recently said, for a Civ 2 scenario, history ends at turn one.)
  • Vienna. How could one make a Sobieski scenario without it? My idea is this: In 1683, if you've successfully managed to ward of the Turks since then, they'll invade Austria and try to take Vienna. If you haven't been able to ward of the Turks, they'll blitzkrieg Poland. (From what I've read, it seems they invaded Austria primarily because they couldn't make headway into the Republic of Two Countries.)
  • Furthermore, I'd like to make the battle of Vienna an epic, hard-won battle (even though the actual battle took only a day. Any idea on how to do this?
  • On the topic of Vienna, how can I ensure that the Polish forces get to Vienna on time without allowing them to march through the Holy Roman Empire from turn 1? I'm considering using a second map for this (the scenario will be ToT), but I'd prefer not to. Of course, any veteran Civ 2 player knows about your "allies"' tendency to block your path, even when it's in that ally's best interest. :roll:
  • Troops. What kinds to I need? I've got a number of Polish, Russian, Turkish and other graphics (mainly from fairline's 30 Years' War sets), but I still wonder. I know that, at least "to Sobieski" the foreign troops (which seemed to comprise most of the Polish infantry at the time) were of lower quality than the native troops, but was this true when Sobieski first became a great general? How do you simulate the recruiting of foreign infantry, as opposed to native? Do I need seperate pikeman and musketeer graphics, as the scenario is strategic in scope? Should I give the player the possibility of a strong Polish navy? What kind of ships could I build? I've heard that a number of Muslim Tartars fought with the Polish army. Do I need to create special units for them? If so, how do I keep it their recruitment confined to the Tartar areas of the Commonwealth.
  • Of course, hussars will be in the game. They'll be elite cavalry, but expensive to build (based on the historical levels of hussars vs. Cossack cavalry in the Polish army, I'm thinking of having hussars as three times more expensive, what do you think?)
  • Religion. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, while officially Catholic, had a number of faiths practiced by its citizens. I'm thinking of dividing the Temple, Cathedral and Colosseum improvements into Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox houses of worship, with them giving greater happiness under their respective rulers(i.e., Protestant Churches will make more people content under Protestant Swedes than Catholic Poles, for example, and Orthodox churches will work better under the Orthodox Russians.) Any help on that?
  • Any detailed historical sources I can read on the reign of Sobieski? Some 'net sources seem to jump from his election to the battle of Vienna, which is at least a decade or so. If the good sources are online and/or free, so much the better. (Yes, I know of the Osprey books, but the two ones on Poland are roughly $60 together.)
  • Map. Currently I'm using a cropped version of the Red Front map (it covers all the area I probably need - perhaps more - even though I got rid of a bit of the Russian hinterland). I've tried using the map taken from Härtel's giant Europe map, but there still seems to be some problems with that. What do you think?

Well, that's all for now. Feel free to comment, offer suggestions, etc. And, in an amazing coincidence, I found out that Mel Gibson is looking to help with a Sobieski-Vienna movie to be flimed in Poland next year. Looks like I'll have more of an audience for my scenario.
Last edited by GhostOfDisco; September 12, 2009, 16:38.
The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

  • #2
    another GREAT IDEA !!!

    and I didn't know about Gibson's movie project... let'shope...
    "Dilexi iustitiam, odivi iniquitatem, propterea morior in exilio" [PAPA GREGORIUS VII +1085] - ("He amado la justicia, he odiado la iniquidad, por eso muero en exilio") - ("I loved justice, I hated unfairness, that's why I die in exile") - (J'ai aimé la justice, j'ai détesté l'iniquité, c'est pourquoi je meurs en exil") - ("Ich liebte Gerechtigkeit und hasste Ungerechtigkeit, deshalb sterbe ich im Exil")

    Comment


    • #3
      MAP: If you want to use part of the European map I built for WWII Europa, and cut out the bits you need with Mercators MapEdit, then feel free. I think it is quite accurate and to scale.

      FOREIGN UNITS: I remember a scenario called Komenai [sic] by a Polish guy (!) which was about the Byzantines set in about 1071. You could only build garrison units and recruits. The recruits had the 'attack a/c' ability and they had to make their way to training depots (which were aircraft with 0 movement) which they destroyed. An event would then create a Military unit in Constantinople and rebuild the training depot where it was before.
      I always thought that was a cool idea. Maybe you could find a use for it!

      Great idea for a scenario. I will lend what help I can. Need to start reading up on the era. I have always loved the paintings of the Polish led relief army charging into the Turkish camp overlooking Vienna. I once visited the Arsenal Museum in Vienna where they have some of the actual tents the Turks had abandoned after the battle, they are huge!
      Attached Files
      SCENARIO LEAGUE FORUM
      SCENARIO LEAGUE WIKI SITE
      SL INFORMATION THREAD
      CIV WEBRING MULTIPLAYER FORUM

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Werd100
        I remember a scenario called Komenai [sic] by a Polish guy (!)
        Heresson, King of all Frogs under the sky!

        He often posts around here, usually to complain there aren't enough scens about Poland!

        So he is bound to appear in this thread soon!
        Ankh-Morpork, we have an orangutan...
        Discworld Scenario: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1
        POMARJ Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...8&pagenumber=1
        LOST LEGIONS Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=169464

        Comment


        • #5
          If Heresson is Maciej Czy then yes! He is indeed a frogging genius! I remember being very inspired by this event/unit creation idea. It means that you can centralize unit production and isolated cities cannot produce formidable units by themselves. The scenario was very tough too. Oh, and the scenario name was: Komnenai!

          Here is how it works:

          Training depot:
          Cavalry camp2,no, 1, 0.,127, 0a,0d, 1h,0f, 11,0, 0, no, 000000000000001

          Recruit:
          Recruit, Ban, 0, 1.,0, 1a,0d, 1h,2f, 15,0, 0, U2, 001000000010010

          Event A:
          @IF
          UNITKILLED
          unit=Cavalry camp
          attacker=Romans
          defender=ANYBODY
          @THEN
          TEXT
          New cavalry regiment trained
          ENDTEXT
          CREATEUNIT
          unit=Byz.Cavalry
          owner=TRIGGERATTACKER
          veteran=no
          homecity=Constantinople
          locations
          115,49
          101,31
          105,37
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          endlocations
          @ENDIF

          +

          Event B:
          @IF
          UNITKILLED
          unit=Cavalry camp
          attacker=Romans
          defender=ANYBODY
          @THEN
          CREATEUNIT
          unit=Cavalry camp
          owner=Barbarians
          veteran=no
          homecity=NONE
          locations
          98,28
          99,29
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          0,0
          endlocations
          @ENDIF

          Obviously this event works best in pre-Flight eras else I would borrow it for my WWII ToT remake.
          Attached Files
          SCENARIO LEAGUE FORUM
          SCENARIO LEAGUE WIKI SITE
          SL INFORMATION THREAD
          CIV WEBRING MULTIPLAYER FORUM

          Comment


          • #6
            This is a great idea for a scenario. I'm looking forward to it.
            Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

            www.tecumseh.150m.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Yep, I've got Konmenai. I know how the recruitment thing works - which is probably why I could'nt raise any more cavalry when the Turks conquered central Asia Minor.

              Though, the concept would be useful when recruiting "local" units (i.e. Tartar "camps" emerge near Polish-held Tartar cities, when destroyed with a "recruit" then creates a Polish Tartar unit, for example.)

              As for the foreign infantry, I think the best option for it might be what was done in Exodus II - That guy (forgot the Israeli unit's name) "bought" units by "destroying" purchase units, and when that was done money was dectracted from the Israeli civ and a fighting unit (of the puchase unit's type) was created.

              Of course, there is the possibility of abuse - the player could give Poland an inordinate mass of foreign infantry units, but then the abuse could be limited by a number of factors - how many moves the "purchaser unit" has, the quick loss of money (can ToT allow the player to go into debt), etc.

              And what should the Sobieski unit look like? What did he wear when going into battle? I've seen some pictures, but sometimes the armor looks more symbolic than actual (one picture has him in psuedo-Roman armor) and, well... I dunno. I do know that he made a point to wear traditional Polish costume, so...

              Werd, I think I'll try and use a cropped version of your European map. Would the size of the resulting area be bigger than Red Front's? I don't know. Though I have considered using your map for a hypothetical 1985 Cold War-goes-hot scenario...
              The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
              2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

              Comment


              • #8
                Not sure how my map stacks up against Red Front scale wise. I do think it is a fairly accurate representation of eastern Europe though and would cover all the areas you are looking at.

                Think the pic below is of Sobieski, though I am not sure how historically accurate it is. Look good though!
                Attached Files
                SCENARIO LEAGUE FORUM
                SCENARIO LEAGUE WIKI SITE
                SL INFORMATION THREAD
                CIV WEBRING MULTIPLAYER FORUM

                Comment


                • #9
                  IMHO the red front map is NOT good for this scen. I've seen you mentioned it in another thread a while backand took a look then and though "man, he needs a bigger map". Somehow I nver got around to reply then.
                  "Peace cannot be kept by force.
                  It can only be achieved by understanding"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Arthedain
                    IMHO the red front map is NOT good for this scen. I've seen you mentioned it in another thread a while backand took a look then and though "man, he needs a bigger map". Somehow I nver got around to reply then.
                    Well, right now I'm planning on using Werd's European map (to be more precise, a section thereof), so...
                    The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                    2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ..which makes it all good. And IIRC the map will be more detailed if you use it.
                      "Peace cannot be kept by force.
                      It can only be achieved by understanding"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, I've been doing city placement, anmd have been using Werd's WWII scenario and this map. I've had some trouble, though - I'm not sure just which cities on the WWII map existed at the time of the scenarios (I know some, like Stalingrad, hadn't been founded yet), and sometimes I'm not sure where the "Jasinski map"'s cities are on the WWII map (or my cropped copy for the scen). Anyone give any help?

                        I've also done a few unit and improvement graphics, which I'll show here when I have the chance.

                        Oh, and does anyone know where Czestochowa is?

                        And some thoughts about Wonders:
                        The Black Madonna of Czestochowa will take the place of Bach's Cathedral.
                        The Salt mines of Wieliczka - should it be the Colossus (extra trade) or Crusade (extra shields)?
                        Should I make Wawel (in Krakow) the Women's Suffrage wonder, or should it be, say, the Royal Castle in Warsaw?

                        Can you build a Cathedral without a Temple? Because Temples, Cathedrals, and Colosseums (or at least their improvement slots) play an important role in the Catholic-Orthodox-Protestant division in my scenario (at least I hope it does).
                        Last edited by GhostOfDisco; April 21, 2007, 14:51.
                        The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                        2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Post me the cropped map you are using and I will send you back the grid references for the cities of a save game with them places so you can transfer them across. I pretty much know that map inside out and have the original map to help me where my memory fails! I will PM you my e-mail address.
                          SCENARIO LEAGUE FORUM
                          SCENARIO LEAGUE WIKI SITE
                          SL INFORMATION THREAD
                          CIV WEBRING MULTIPLAYER FORUM

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here are a few maps:

                            Nowoczesne medium, porządkuje świat i dostarcza angażujące informacje, rozrywkę i usługi w czasie rzeczywistym. Przewodnik Polaków w wirtualnym świecie.



                            Czestochowa is on the Warta rivers, north of Krakow, east of Breslau. Are you going to use German or Pole city names btw?
                            Sea Kings TOT

                            Sors salutis/ et virtutis/ michi nunc contraria,/ est affectus/ et defectus/ semper in angaria./
                            Hac in hora/ sine mora/ corde pulsem tangite;/ quod per sortem/ sternit fortem,/ mecum omnes plangite!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
                              Yep, I've got Konmenai. I know how the recruitment thing works - which is probably why I could'nt raise any more cavalry when the Turks conquered central Asia Minor.
                              Because You had to held on until You discovered Alexios Tech, which would create two new training camps next to Cople... You lose Asia Minor, but You can re-conquer west of if... or all, except for that recently I discovered a bug in this scenario that makes that hard.

                              Anyway, I'd be delighted to help, with city choice and stuff... But my civ2 doesn't work on my new comp, the old one is broke, so no playtesting, and I am fairly busy, so sorry for any delays.

                              I may search for Sobieski... There's a baroque statue of him killing a Turk in Lazienki Park But it has no colours. I'm sure it won't be hard to find something.
                              "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                              I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                              Middle East!

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