Jan III Sobieski scenario

[McMonkey]

Looks quite solid. Hit points and firepower will be the values that really distinguish the units though.

[Heresson]

Ghoast, don't You think there should be less forests in the ukrainian steppes?

[GhostOfDisco]

Yeah, probably, I'll get to that. But what to put there to keep the terrain varied (grasslands, perhaps?)

And I might make the cavalry have a move of 7, given that the Hussars in Werd's Bonaparte 3 could get to Vienna from Krakow within a month, but couldn't fight at full strength when they got there.

[GhostOfDisco]

A bit of an update-

Progress has stalled, though I've done a few things. For one, I've tried setting the populations, using Henrik Lohmander's "Carolus Gustavus Regis" scenario. Sometimes I wonder if his figures were exaggerated (I think Gdansk/Danzig was 12-15 pop), though, given that Civ city populations are not only of the city, but the countryside as well...

Also problematic is the fact that his scenario doesn't certain cities that are on mine (Kharkov, for instance- is that historically accurate?) I've got no real data on the thing - can somebody help me out here? Then there's farmland, irrigation etc. - how much should I place? I don't know how it was back in those days, and in my Civ 2 playing experience I tend not to irrigate/farm unless I have to, and I know the Poles were mostly a rural people, so - any help?

Then there's units. I know what kind of Polish units I'll have (hussars, pacerni, infantry, grenadiers, dragoons, etc.), but not quite sure what kind of units should be available for the other civs. From what I've seen of fairline's 30YW and Carolus graphics, the Russians should have Strelets and Boyars (wasn't a Boyar simply a noble, and not necessarily a soldier) but I'm not sure what else. Would the Hapsburgs/HRE need units for several different nationalities, or would simple "Imperial Infantry" and "Imperial Cavalry" units suffice? And then there's the Turks - what kind of units should I place in their arsenal besides Sipahis and Janissaries? (And what should their values be?) Not to mention the fact that I don't know what Brandenberg soldiers looked like...

Then there's foreign policy and such. I know one of the tensions of historical Civ 2 scenarios is giving the player a realistic world, while not tying him too much to the historical record. How should I achieve that balance? I know there was a France-Ottoman-Swedish-Polish pact in which Sobieski hoped to take Ducal Prussia (where Königsburg is) and secure a Polish dynasty, only to march the other way when the Ottomans stabbed Poland in the back and invaded the Republic. I dunno- one of the reasons why I decided to give Poland the Republic governmant was to show how the king was restrained by the Sejm - and the fact that the Senate (in the Civ 2 Republic) constrains the King's foreign policy does just that.

As for Vienna, I've got a general idea of how it should play out:

• In the summer of 1683, a large Turkish army will be created in Budapest (or maybe Belgrade) and make its way to Vienna.
• In front of Vienna is an air "fortress unit." When the Turks' Kara Mustafa Pasha unit destroys it (as it will be the only unit in the game that can attack aerial units), a "Standard of Mohammed/Turkish camp" unit will be created in its place.
• There will be Polish-owned "Imperial" units in Vienna, giving the player the responsibility for defending the city. The player's job is to fend off the Ottomans while assembling the relief forces (both German and Polish) to crush the Ottoman force once and for all.
• After destroying the "Standard/Camp" unit, the Wonder of Sobieski's Victory (Adam Smith) will be un-obsolete, representing the wealth acquired by the Poles at the victory (and, if I set the maintenence cost of City Walls to 1, beneficial to both Poland's security and her treasury.)

Of course there are details that need to be fleshed out - how strong should the Turkish Camp unit be, how to prevent the seige of Vienna from being too easy for the Turks, etc. - but that's what I've got in store (provided the player is able and willing to continue to July-September of 1683.

If the Turks have Lwow/Lvov, however, the big army will spawn there, and you won't be able to activate Sobieski's Victory unless you can make it all the way down to conquering Constantinople (which will undoubtedly have its own text and such.) So, keeping Lvov and saving Vienna is the desired option.

I've also read about there being Tartar/Cossack revolts, but wonder how frequent they should be, if at all, during Sobieski's tenure as Hetman and reign as king. I'm thinking of putting such units in the slots where "friendly mercenaries" and barbarians emerge...

On a final note (for this post) here's a Polish Light Cavalry unit pic. I've heard that Poland had this kind of cavalry (in fact, post-Deluge kings and Hetmans had to limit their number so as to not overwhelm the hussars and pacerni) but not sure how to differentiate it from the pacerni while making it somewhat desirable to build (pacerni are cheaper - obviously - from the hussars, so...) while not replacing the infantry or anything like that. Also, I've got no clue as to how accurate the unit pic is historically, but still...

[McMonkey]

Re: Placing irrigation
One important thing to bear in mind when placing irrigation is the effect it will have on population growth.

Unless you want to have cities grow rapidly during the game it is a good idea to place irrigation at the start and make sure cities only have a moderate surplus.
If you don't place it at the start then players can dramatically boost the population of cities and turn farmers into scientists and tax collectors. This may upset your plans for tech development!

Re: Units
I have a good book about Cavalry by Zvonimir Grbasic and Velimir Vuksic. It has some good illustrations and some useful info on the period. I will try and scan/type up some stuff that may be useful.

Some of the units covered are:
Imperialist Curassier c.1630
Dragoon c.1630
Croat c.1630
Polish Winged Hussar - Second half of 17th C
Polish Pancerni 17th C
Turkish Faris Bajrektar - End of 17th C
Austrian Hussar 1688

Although the dates don't all seem to match the info is quite general for the period.

Re: Populations
I will see if I can find any maps of the period to scan. I think the most important thing to consider is the effect of city size on gameplay. Getting he city size totally right could have a negative effect on the game. Some artistic licence is definitely acceptable!

The concept still sounds very exciting and you seem to be developing your ideas in a very thorough manner. I can't see how this scenario would not succeed!!!

[McMonkey]

Useful info about Polish Pancerni
In Poland, the mail-clad riders were caller Pancerni (frm the German panzer - armour). At the reviews held before the Battle of Vienna (1683), 8,874 pancerni rode past under 84 flags; this was more than half of Poland's total cavalrymen at the time. They were heavy cavalry, organized in units of about 100, and the men serving in them belonged mainly to the middle and lower nobility. They were armed with a 3m / 10ft spear (rohatyna), a sabre (szabla), a long straight sword (konzerz) up to 170cm /70in long usually worn on the left side of the saddle, a sabre (karabela), a composite bow and a round shield (kalkan). Part of the pancerni who fought at Vienna also had a pair of pistols in ornamented saddle holsters.

There is more in this article about chain-mail but I did not think it was so relevent. I can add it if you are interested. I wll add more info over the next few days!

[McMonkey]

I just noticed that the picture is by Vuksic! I found it on the net as I was too lazy to scan the one in the book.
Small world!

This site has some useful illustrations of the period. Note how similar the Polish Pancerni and the Ottoman Sipahi of 1490 are!

Velemir Vuksic

[McMonkey]

And here are some paintings by Grbasic that may ne useful for a title?

[McMonkey]

or

[curtsibling]

Beautiful imagery there, especially the previous one!

Full of martial splendour of a long-past age...Excellence!

[McMonkey]

Useful info on the Polish Winged Hussar

A participant in the Battle of Vienna witnessed the charge of 3,000 Polish winged hussars down the slopes of the Kalenberg against the Turkish army, and describes it thus: 'The Hussars attacked the Godless Turks like angels from heaven'. He was alluding to the wings fixed to the backs of the hussars' armour. The charge, which broke Turkish resistance, partly explains the wings' function: combined with three-quarter ornamented armour covered with bear, leopard and tiger skins, made of eagle, swan, and wild goose feathers, worn by men wielding long lances with multicoloured pennants on the tip, these appendages impressed and intimidated the enemy. Many observers wrote that they were the most beautiful riders in the world: the metal, skins, flags and noble and fiery horses must have been an awe-inspiring sight.

Many drawings, prints and written sources from the sixteenth century depict or describe winged horsemen. According to one source, his habit of ornamentation came from Asia, and was adopted by peoples who became part of the Turkish Empire. Another locates it in medieval Serbia. Besides their ornamental function, the wings had a ritual one - giving the rider 'the ease of speed of a bird carried by the wind', and, supposedly, a protective function too. The nomadic people of the Asian and Russian steppes used lassoes to snare horses, and these could also be used for capturing the riders. The wings were supposed to hinder the use of a lasso.

The winged horsemen are most often identified with seventeenth-century hussars because for nearly one hundred years Polish cavalry dominated the spaces of north-eastern Europe. Under their motto: 'First we defeat the enemy, then w count them', they vanquished the Swedes at Kokenhausen (1601), the Russians at Kushino (1610), the Cossacks at Beresteczko (1651), and the Turks at Chocim in 1621 and 1673, Kamienec Podloski (1653), Vienna and Parkany (1683). These battles, and the winged hussars, were not forgotten.

The hussar's breast armour, made on the basis of the Italian anima armour, could withstand a musket shot from 20 paces, while the back armour was impervious to a pistol shot from point-blank range. The most frequent gilt ornaments on the breastplate were the Virgin Mary on the left side and the cross on the right. Besides a heavy lance 5m/16ft long, the hussars had a type of combat sabre (karabela boyova), a straight sword 170cm/70in long for piercing mail coif (konzerz) and two pistolscarried in saddle holsters.

The hussar unit (coragiew) consisted of up to 150 men, who were either recruited on the terratorial principle or were owned by a Polish magnate: Radziwill, Sobiesky, Potocki, Sienawsky, Lubomirski, Pac, and so on. Each unit had a destinctive pennant for recognition on the battlefield, and each man was attended during campaigns by one or two servants. As the hussars always carried everything necessary for at least two months, each man had one (or more) baggage wagon in the supply train.

[McMonkey]

Some more info you may or may not find useful!

Austrian Hussar 1688

In 1526, the Hungarian army were defeated by the Turks at the Battle of Mohacs. The king and the cream of the nobility died in this battle, and Hungary broke up into three parts: one was occupied by Turks, who installed their administration; another acknowledged the rule of Vienna, hoping to gain protection from the Turks; the third proclaimed its own king and converted to Protestantism, so that feudal lords could take over the church's rich lands. These divisions led to constant conflict over the next 300 years: part of the Hungarian nobility acknowledged the rule of the Habsburgs, part fought against them alongside the Turks, and part with the Habsburgs against the Turks. Alliances depended on circumstances and estimates of where the greater evil lurked.

In the Turkish Great March on Vienna (1683), Austria was devastated by Tartars, Akinjis and Hungarian light horsemen - the hussars. They were led by Imre Thokoly, a Hungarian lord who headed the uprising against the Habsburgs. With the help of allied forces from Poland and the German statelets, the Austrians succeeded in defending Vienna and then undertook an offensive against Turkey. In 1686, the Austrian Army was reorganized and the same year Budim fell to Austrian forces. Preparing for further thrusts east, Austrian Emperor Leopold I founded the first regular Austrian hussar regiment.

[McMonkey]

Turkish Faris Bajrektar end of seventeenth century

Local Muslims were recruited into mercenary units (dzema'at - Arabic for gathering) in the border areas of the Ottoman Empire towards Austria and Hungary. These units (faris) numbered between 20 and 50 men; their task was to protect the border and make up the numbers in the operational army in case of war. Dzema'ats were organized territorially in fortresses and townships in the smaller administrative units (nahys) and one or more were commanded by an agha. A smaller unit (oda) was commanded by an obabasa. In 1701, in the Gradacac dzema'at on the Austrian border, the commander, Bairam-agha, had 48 men at his disposal: his deputy (cehay), the ensign (bajrektar), quartermaster (gulaguz), scribe (kyatib), four officers (odabusas) and 40 riders (farisis). Their daily pay was: agha 40 akchy, cehay 20, bajrektar 15, gulaguz and kyatib 13, odabasa 12 and faris 11.

In war, several dzema'ats, with 500-1,000 men, made up a higher unit (alay) commanded by an alaybey. The bey was the lowest-ranking officer in the Ottoman army permitted to wear one horse-tail (tug); a bey of beys (beylerbey) was allowed two, a vizier three, and the sultan had four tugs.

In the Asian steppes, nomads first tied horse-tails to their lances for signal purposes, transmitting messages as far as the eye could see. As this was a means of issuing orders in war, the horse-tail became associated with those who gave the orders - commanders and chieftains. If there were several tugs in the field, they had to be recognized, and their importance assesed. The more horse-tails, the more important the man issuing the order and therefore the order itself. In time, the tug became a war flag, which the Turks brought into central Asia and on their conquests. In the seventeenth century, they were partially replaced by standards in the regular army, but semi-regular and irregular light cavalry units went on using them until the end of the nineteenth century.

The picture (?) shows a faris bajrektar in parade uniform from about the time of the Siege of Vienna (1683). Muslim craftsmen responsible for the traditionally ornate decoration of warriors' equipment and armament could not use representations of people and animals, but achieved perfection in geometric and floral motifs. Turkish riding equipment - saddles, sabres and shields - were especially valued in Hungary, Poland and Russia, and despite wars and a papal ban, trade with the Muslim craftsmen continued.

[Patine]

McMonkey, these look like direct quotes from history books. You should probably credit your sources, if not for legal reasons, then out of respect for the author.

[conmcb25]

Ill be watching this one with interest, I might even have to fire up CIV 2 once again for this one