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Jan III Sobieski scenario

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  • #76
    Thanks, curt!

    Been doing some more stuff involving cities, land, placement, et cetera. Two problems I'm having are 1)roads and 2)city population sizes. With 2013: A Union divided all I had/have to do is/was look at the US highway map for the roads, and look up the wiki on metropolitan areas for city sizes. 17th century central/eastern Europe, however, is different: I don't really have that much reliable information on populations of different cities, nor do I have good road maps of the area. Sure, I could look at a modern European road map and/or the roads in a WW2 European scenario or something, but I think a few roads have been built in central and eastern Europe since the days when hussars roamed the steppe. So, I've been looking at scenarios that take place before and after my scenario, comparing them and making guesstimates. Still, I have few roads in place, and have much work to do in that field.

    I've also been looking at the city styles, and decided not to make the Polish style the "Modern" style, as the game does not consider Polish cities to be "large" in the "modern" era. Instead, I'm giving that slot to the "Western" nations, who for the time being are using the "18th century Prussian" city style for their look. Instead, Poland and Russia (Muscovy) be "ancient" civs, with Polish Baroque being one city style and Russian another (though not in the classical slot, I think, since the Polish/Lithuanian civ was originally "Greek," it takes the "classical" slot when I play that civ even when I assign it a different city style slot in the Rules file.)

    Been thinking about some wonders, and where they should go. I've wondered about making the Eiffel Tower the "Sobieski's victory wonder," while it probably gives the best reflection of history (as the victory at Vienna did increase Poland's international reputation but, some have argued, did little else for the country), though since said Tower is said to not have much effect in the game, that might not be a good enough incentive for the player to save Vienna from the Turks. From a gameplay perspective, Adam Smith's wonder might be a better Wonder, as the opportunity to have the cost of a number of improvements paid off might be good for a cash-strapped Polish player. (Poland's treasury was, I have read, meager throughout this time.) There's also a sliver of historical plausibility in this, as the Turkish camp at Vienna was known for its spoils. On another note, I'm thinking of giving Kamnenienic (sp) the Great Wall, emphasizing the importance of said outpost in the Polish/Turkish border situation.

    Also been wondering about the Crimean Tartars; while I have decided to make them part of the Ottoman empire/civilization, they do seem to have raided Poland a lot, and I'm not sure it was only when Turkey and Poland were at war. In that case, perhaps the best answer would be to have Tartars be both among Barbarians and Turks, with hex-editing to make the Ottomans allied with the barbs lest the Tartars ravage their own allies. Of course, this would mean that the Turks would be immune from renegade Cossack raids, but with the Tartars at their side, maybe the Turks didn't historically have to fear such raiders. (I don't know.)

    Anyway, if anyone's got any info about central and eastern Europe in the mid-late 17th century that might help, please let me know. I know some websites (Polish Renaissance Warfare, that Polish Horse Artillery reenactment group, and some others) that have proven useful, but I still have much to do.

    And, at the end of this long, long post (most of which was composed offline), here's some eye-candy: my latest attempt at a Crimean Tartar. This one was shamelessly based on fairline's Pacerni unit, with elements from several other fairline units (the 30YW English dragoon and several Mongol units from the ToT adaptation of Harlan's Mongol scenario) thrown into the mix.
    Attached Files
    The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
    2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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    • #77
      Hi. I can't wait to play the finished scenario...

      Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
      Also been wondering about the Crimean Tartars; while I have decided to make them part of the Ottoman empire/civilization, they do seem to have raided Poland a lot, and I'm not sure it was only when Turkey and Poland were at war. In that case, perhaps the best answer would be to have Tartars be both among Barbarians and Turks, with hex-editing to make the Ottomans allied with the barbs lest the Tartars ravage their own allies. Of course, this would mean that the Turks would be immune from renegade Cossack raids, but with the Tartars at their side, maybe the Turks didn't historically have to fear such raiders. (I don't know.)
      Maybe this helps:

      While the Crimean coast became part of the Ottoman Empire, the khan continued to rule in the rest of the peninsula and the northern steppes.

      The relationship of the Ottomans and the Crimean Tatars were unique. The sultans treated the khans more as allies than subjects. Though the chosen khan had to receive approval to the Sultan, they were not appointees of Constantinople. The Ottomans also recognized the legitimacy of the khans in the steppes, as descendants of Genghis Khan.The khans continued to have a foreign policy independent from the Ottomans in the steppes of Little Tartary. The relations of the khans and the Ottoman Sultan were governed through diplomatic correspondence. The khans continued to mint coins and use their names in Friday prayers, two important signs of sovereignty. They did not pay tribute to the Ottoman Empire, instead the Ottomans paid them in return for their services of providing skilled outriders and frontline cavalry in their campaigns.

      Let me know, if you need any information about the khanate's or Ottoman Empire's military...
      Last edited by Dr Kellogg; February 18, 2008, 04:37.

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      • #78
        The Crimean Tartar looks amazing! I can't wait to see how this scenario looks when finished.

        Re: Roads
        I guess most of the major cities would have been linked by roads. A lot of modern roads have ancient roots. They just tarmacked over the cart tracks

        The most important thing to consider is how roads will effect the gameplay. You can use them to channel the play into areas that are historically accurate even if the exact location of the roads is not.

        I have been playing Pablostuka's Spanish Civil War scenario recently and it is very important to carefully consider roads. For example, Madrid is in the centre and the roads lead out like spokes on a bike wheel. Control of Madrid can effectively cut the country in two. Another good RL example is the town of Bastogne in WWII which was the key to the road network in the Ardennes and the reason the 101st Airborne fought so hard to keep it.
        SCENARIO LEAGUE FORUM
        SCENARIO LEAGUE WIKI SITE
        SL INFORMATION THREAD
        CIV WEBRING MULTIPLAYER FORUM

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Dr. Kellogg Let me know, if you need any information about the khanate's or Ottoman Empire's military...
          Sure! Any info would be great. So far, I know that they had Janissaries for infantry, Saphis for cavalry, inferior artillery (which is why they used sappers at Vienna), and not much else. I also know the Tartars had (of course) cavalry, but I don't know about their infantry. Because their foreign policy was independant of the Sultan, I'm thinking that they might just be an independant power (there really wasn't much for the "Neutral" power anyway) and if so, they'll definitely need to have their own "garrison" units, at the very least.

          Originally posted by McMonkey
          The most important thing to consider is how roads will effect the gameplay. You can use them to channel the play into areas that are historically accurate even if the exact location of the roads is not.

          I have been playing Pablostuka's Spanish Civil War scenario recently and it is very important to carefully consider roads. For example, Madrid is in the centre and the roads lead out like spokes on a bike wheel. Control of Madrid can effectively cut the country in two. Another good RL example is the town of Bastogne in WWII which was the key to the road network in the Ardennes and the reason the 101st Airborne fought so hard to keep it.
          True, true. Among other things, I put in the road route from Krakow to Vienna, and one thing I made sure to do is put a lot of roads around the two Hapsburg cities leading to Vienna (Brunn and another city whose name I forget at this time.) The reason I did this was so that the Polish forces could make the march Sobieski did historically (get from the old Polish capital to the besieged German city in a month or so) without obstructions like that oh-so-obnoxious "AI ally blocks your only route of advance" thing happening. It might still happen, but I've tried to minimize it (without putting too many roads in central Germany!)

          Something I've been wondering about: you mention of tecumseh's Frederick the Great scenario, and one thing that struck out in my mind was that the various countries spawned armies every spring or so. I'd like to do that, but in a more efficient way than having to do a bunch of unit-spawn events each individual turn of spring (did that make sense)? Anyway, go to go now!
          Last edited by GhostOfDisco; February 18, 2008, 21:30.
          The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
          2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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          • #80
            A note: when reading this article, I noted this snippet:

            There were 7 razriads [military districts]from the 1630's to the 1670's:

            - Tula
            - Smolensk (created in 1655, after its capture)
            - Novgorod
            - Sevsk
            - Belgorod
            - Ryazan
            - Kazan
            I was wondering how to incorporate that into the scenario, and decided that, at the very least, I could put a Barracks ("Armory" in this scenario) in each of those cities.

            Also wondering about what to call Courthouses- I'm thinking maybe "Voivodships," but thinking that given the habits of the magnates and other rich szlachta, an increase of voivodships might mean an increase of corruption. Maybe a Starosta generalny (the administator of a province) or a starosta grodowy (the equivalent of a mayor, it seems) ... hmm, since the Starosta Grodowy was in charge of enforcing judicial matters, including all local and visiting nobility ... I think I've found my "courthouse!" (And I've got a cool Zamosc city hall pic for it as well! )

            (Though I Lithuania they were known as Starosta grodzki. Meh, I'll just put a mention of that in the civilopedia or something...)

            Also, for my own reference- Kamenieniec was taken by the Turks in August of 1672.
            The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
            2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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            • #81
              Wondering ... I'm not sure if Adam Smith's wonder is such a good idea for Sobieski's Victory, as it only pays for improvments with an upkeep of 1. What do you think?

              Also, here's the "Improvement" pic of the Starosta Grodowy improvement:
              Attached Files
              The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
              2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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              • #82
                If there are a lot of such improvements, its well worth it.

                Very nice improvement pic.

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                • #83
                  Lovely image, GhostOfDisco!

                  Top marks...!

                  http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Home
                  http://totalfear.blogspot.com/

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                  • #84
                    While planning out roads, placing cities and such, one issue came across my mind: distance. When planning out the movement rates, I've been using tecumseh's Frederick the Great scenario as a model, as its map has a similar square-to-distance ratio as my mine, and I've assumed that the scenario is more or less realistic in this regard. With that (as I have mentioned earlier), my plan was/is for infantry to have a movement of three and cavalry a movement of six, with roads doubling that. Why do I mention this? Because one of the things I want to be able to do is replicate Sobieski's historical feat of marching from Krakow down to Vienna in time to save the city. His army began its march from Poland's historic capital on August 15, and saved the day outside Vienna on September 12 - roughly a month or so.

                    Problem is, I calulated the distance it takes to take that route via roads, and it turns out to be 14 squares. Meaning the cavalry units will be the only ones able to reach Vienna by the time the turn ends (if I give them a movement of 7), and will be in no condition to go on the offensive until the next turn. On the other hand, maybe that would actually be historically accurate - the Poles begin their march in August, then save the city when September goes around. I'm leaning toward that idea...

                    Attached below is the latest city placement file. I wonder if I've given too many cities to Poland to the extend Poland will be able to be more powerful than its neighbors simply by virtue of its size.

                    Also, I'm wondering about using the .spr technique to give some of the cossack units national color (i.e. Cossacks working for Poland have red clothes, while those in the employ of Muscovy wear green) ... do you think I should go with it?

                    (Another thing - if you look in the file, you'll see that Poland has the Conscription tech. That's because one of the Cossack units will be in the Rifleman slot. (The other Cossack unit will be in the Horseman slot, from which - in my experience/playtests - the barbarian hordes take form. Besides Riflemen, you'll sometimes get an Archer, so I put the Crimean Tartar cavalry in its slot, as there were Tartars who defected to Poland and/or were unhappy with the Ottomans at this time IIRC.
                    Attached Files
                    The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                    2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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                    • #85
                      An update: I’ve done some more city placement, this time with the Swedes and the Ottomans. (The current map, roomed out to the maximum, can be seen below.) It looks to me that the map is pretty much fleshed out with the exceptions of Russia and the Tartars, I think. I will have to make some adjustments to city sizes (I’m guessing Belgorod was larger than Kharkov at the time, since that city was the home to the regional razriad (military district) even thought the two cities were in the same geographic region. I also think I need to at least have the cities which heaquartered each razriad, and other (Ack! Lost my train of thought.) I’m wondering about Tartar cities as well – did they have urban areas, or were they nomadic like their ancestors?

                      Also did a bit of “testing” the goodie huts a bit. Mercs are usually the “red” Cossacks (in the Rifleman slot), thought sometimes they’re the Tatars (in the Archers slot) and sometimes Crusaders (probably due to the MT tech, which I might give to Poland so Protestant churches act under it.) I’m wondering what to do with the Crusader unit slot – maybe give it to a “German Mercenary” unit or something (You never know, maybe some German mercs in Moscow’s service went AWOL or something. ☺ ) Also, I used the hussar unit to get to the goodie hut and was amazed at how mobile they were on open ground. I’m wondering/hoping that the movement rate is historically accurate, though I do know I’m not exactly used to land units being so mobile cross-country…

                      One thing I’ve been wondering about is the scenario length. My current plans are for the scenario to begin in January 1667 (the signing of the treaty of Andrusovo), and end in July of 1696 (Sobieski’s death.) If each turn is one month, than that’s about 350 or so turns (354, give or take) total. So I’m wondering if the player’s going to get bored waiting for the Turks to march on Vienna. I dunno – most scenarios these days only seem to cover a few years or so (then again, that’s probably because they model only one specific war/campaign or so.) I’ve though about maybe keeping the unit numbers low (though generally historically proportionate) so that turns go by fast, though I’m not sure. From what I’ve read, 17th century Eastern Europe was in a state of constant warfare, and from the Osprey sources, apart from a time in the later 1630s-40s there was not a time when a Polish army was not in action. So there’s definitely potentially something to keep the player busy until the event-generated Turkish invasions; however, just how to implement it is something else altogether.

                      I think I may have mentioned McMonkey’s mention of Frederick the Great before. Anyway, I’ve considered the creation of seasonal armies (i.e, every year the AI armies get new units) and thought that, combined with a relatively non-constrained diplomatic situation, it might make things quite interesting (true, the other civs get the armies – but how will they use them?) The problem is, unless I wanted to make them generate every half-year or so (would that be accurate or not), since the armies of that time usually were mobilized during the spring/summer, I’d have to create armies for each individual turn. Making all those CREATEUNIT commands, even with ToT’s ability to create several units of the same type with one event, would take up a lot of events space. Then I thought of a possible solution. At the months of the year when they generally mobilize, each of the civs gets a tech (let’s call it “Mobilize Army” for now.) Then, further down the event list, are events that generate units when the civs get said tech, concluded by a series of events that “take” the “Mobilize Army” tech away from the civs as a “result” of obtaining it! Of course, this would mean the same types of armies would be mobilized every year, plus the fact that sometimes those mobilized armies did something (like the Turks marching from Edirne (Adrianople) to Vienna.)

                      On another note, I’ve also begun adding sounds to the game. No attributions to units, events or anything like that yet, but I’ve got some sounds for cavalry, melee infantry, musketeers, Tartar archers, and I’ve even taken one the “Barbarossa” tunes from curt’s Dictator 6 (An event regarding Moscow- if you, as the Poles, take the city, the Russians get made and launch a counterattack!)

                      And here, for your viewing pleasure, is the current status of the map:
                      Attached Files
                      The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                      2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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                      • #86
                        Cities of the Crimean Khanate...
                        Attached Files
                        The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                        2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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                        • #87
                          All this progress sounds very encouraging. As you are using ToT I'm sure you will be able to create enough units each year. I have just got to grips (hopefully) with flags/masks. If you can work out what Tech did in FTG I'm sure you could implement a similar system to create seasonal armies and set them to move on certain objectives at historically accurate dates.

                          I look forward to the first playtest. At the moment it is a little difficult to add meaningful suggestions. I am watching this thread closely though, and liking what I see. It seems that you are getting the groundwork done in a very thorough manner
                          SCENARIO LEAGUE FORUM
                          SCENARIO LEAGUE WIKI SITE
                          SL INFORMATION THREAD
                          CIV WEBRING MULTIPLAYER FORUM

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                          • #88
                            Being doing yet more work on the scenario; I've been doing work on the graphics, and have got several units, including the Saxon, Franconian, and Bavarian infantry that will be needed for the Vienna events (sort of - right now they're the Imperial musketeer from the fairline's 30 Years' War compilation with the country's seal in place of the Imperial one.) It does seem hard to find information on much of this stuff when I try to research online; I can find stuff about the Great Northern War (which is after the period this scenario is in), but not much before that.

                            (Also, for the Swedish infantry I am using right now is the yellow-coated TYW one, would that be accurate? I'm not sure, but...)

                            The fact that there were non-Turkish/Muslim forces (Wallachian, Transylvanian, and Moldavian) made me think ... since there were vessel/client kingdoms of the Ottoman Porte, made when the armies spawn every year, they spawn their own little armies in their areas.

                            Of course, this means that I'd need to make units for their countries as well as the main Ottoman military, but I think that's more a question of research than unit slots (at least so far.)

                            Anyone have any info on the armies of the period, especially pictures? I know this article provides a lot of information on the Muscovite/Russian army of the period, but the amount of information is overwhelming (and I'm not sure just what kinds of infantry I should give Moscow) and it has no picture. The Polish Renaissance Warfare page has been useful in helping me determine and flesh out the Polish forces, though I wish I knew what the proportion of cavalry was when the light cavalry were plentiful before the ratio was fixed 1:1:3 of hussars to light cavalry to pacerni.

                            (On another note, I found a website for a historical novel about the Battle of Vienna, and better yet, free downloads of the site's music. You can bet I'll try to incorporate some of those tunes into the scen!

                            Also, can anyone help me with custom leader titles? I've tried to insert them in post-scenario creation with the rules.txt file, but that doesn't seem to help. Here's the listing of foreign nations as of the last time I played (five of those guys, at least, need custom titles)...
                            Attached Files
                            The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                            2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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                            • #89
                              "Xerxes of the Swedes"
                              "Peace cannot be kept by force.
                              It can only be achieved by understanding"

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                              • #90
                                Yes, I need to rename him. :P
                                The Ghost of the Disco is ... your mastermind, your mastermind!
                                2013: A Union Divided|John III Sobieski|Red Storm

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