"Rise and Fall of Teutonic Order"

[McMonkey]

Lake Peipus 1242

TEUTONIC KNIGHTS vs NOVGOROD

Lake Peipus 1242

Date: 5th April 1242
Location: Near Lake Peipus, Russian - Estonian border
Forces: Teutonic Knights; unknown; Nevski's forces; unknown
Casualties: No reliable estimates

In spring 1242, the Teutonic grand master Gerhard von Malburg led his Knights across the frozen ice of Lake Peipus to attack Pskov. Before they could reach it, they encountered Alexander Nevski, recalled from exile to defend the city. The armies clashed on the ice on 5th April. The Teutonic Knights, possibly outnumbered 60 to one, attacked in a wedge and hours of hand-to-hand fighting ensued. The Knights finally retreated in the face of a fresh cavalry charge. In addition, their heavy armour caused the ice to crack, and many of them drowned as they retreated across it. Their defeat put a stoop to Teutonic plans to conquer Russia.

[McMonkey]

Kulikovo 1380

MUSCOVITE - MONGOL WAR

Kulikovo 1380

Date: 8th September 1380
Location: On Kulikovo Pole (Snipe's Field), by Don River, Russia
Forces: Muscovite Russians: 30,000 - 80,000; Mongols: 30,000 - 125,000
Casualties: No reliable estimates

By the mid 14th century, civil wars had weakened the authority of the Mongol Golden Horde, which had dominated Russia for a century. Prince Dmitri of Moscow tool advantage of this by ceasing regular tribute payments. In response the Mongol general Mamai raised an army, which included Genoese crossbowmen. He allied with Jogaila of Lithuania and Oleg of Ryazan, planning to launch a massed combined attack against the Muscovites. But Dmitri managed to intercept the Mongols at Kulikovo, near the Don river, before they could link up with their allies, who were just 40km (25 miles) away. Before the battle a champion form each side met in single combat, but both died. The ensuing fighting was fierce and both sides suffered heavy casualties. Dmitri eventually won the day by launching a flanking counterattack, and Mamai fled the field. After the battle Dmitri was given the soubriquet "Donski" ("of the Don"). Kulikovo was the first battle in which a Russian army was Victorious over the Mongols.

[McMonkey]

Grunwald (Tannenburg) 1410

TEUTONIC KNIGHTS vs POLAND

Grunwald (Tannenburg) 1410

Date: 15th July 1410
Location: Grunwald (Tannenberg), East Prussia
Forces: Polish - Lithuanians: 39,000; Teutonic Knights: 27,000
Casualties: Teutonic Knights: 13,000 killed, 14,000 prisoners

In July 1409, a Polish-Lithuanian army approached the headquarters of the Teutonic Knights at Marienberg, seeking to crush the independent state the Knights had established in Prussia. The Teutonic grand master Ulrich von Jungingen planned to cut them off at Grunwald with a force of heavy cavalry and infantry. The Polish-Lithuanian army was led by King Ladislav II Jagiello of Poland, assisted by Grand Duke Witold of Lithuania.At first the Polish-Lithuanians simply let the Teutonic Knights get hotter and hotter on the open plain opposite them. However, at noon they attacked, breaking the Teutonic infantry, who were caught in retreat by advancing cavalry from their own side. The Knights rallied, forcing the Lithuanians on the right flank to retreat. They seemed to be getting the better of the fighting until Ladislav launched a reserve force from a forest behind the main army. A Teutonic flanking counterattack failed and the Knights were crushed.

Note: I also know this battle as Tannenburg, on the map the Teutonic battle line stretches between the villages of Grunwald and Tannenburg. The name is spelt differently in the book too. One is berg and the other spelling is burg. I think one means town and the other means hill !?!

Ulrich von Jungingen 1360-1410
In 1407 Ulrich von Jungingen was elected as the 23rd grand master of the Order of the Teutonic Knights, in succession to his brother Konrad. It was an unfortunate choice as he was arrogant and irascible and embarked on an aggressive policy that led to war with Poland and Lithuania in 1409. He fatally underestimated the Poles and Lithuanians, especially their footsoldiers. That he led his men bravely is not in doubt; at one point in the battle of Grunwald he personally charged the strongest Polish unit. But he was killed in the final stages of Grunwald, along with most of his Knights. Von Jungingen's successor as grand master, Heinrich von Plauen struggled to keep the Order's holdings from complete extinction; land had been lost both to Poland and Lithuania and the lss of life at Grunwald meant the Teutonic Knights had to rely on hiring mercenaries, an expense they could ill afford.

[McMonkey]

Chojnice (Conitz) 1454

THIRTEEN YEARS WAR

Chojnice (Conitz) 1454

Date: 18th September 1454
Location: Chojnice (Conitz), northern Poland
Forces: Polish: 20,000; Teutonic Knights 15,000
Casualties: Polish 3,000 killed, 300 knights prisoner; Teutonic Knights: 100 Killed

The Thirteen Years War began in 1454 when leading Prussian cities allied with Poland against the Teutonic Knights. Chojnice had been under siege by the Poles and their Prussian allies since April 1454. The mercenary Bernard Szumborski, hired by the Teutonic Knights, led an army to relieve the city. The Polish army, led by their King Casimir IV, was almost wholly composed of heavy cavalry, their commanders believing that infantry and artillery would be unnecessary. The Poles wheeled around to face the Teutonic force. Initially their tactics of massed cavalry charge were successful, breaking the Teutonic lines and taking Szumborski prisoner. But the Poles were thrown into disarray when a force of Teutonic Knights broke out of the besieged city and attacked their rear, forcing them to retreat. In the panic Szumborski succeeded in escaping and helped to organize the pursuit of the fleeing Polish army. The Poles were completely defeated at Chojnice, but they eventually triumphed over the Teutonic Knights in 1466.

Thats it. Sorry if this clutters up your thread too much. Though reading it may inspire some suggestions for new units or events!

[Exile]

Frozen Lake cracks underneath army?

You Could set it up. Here's how.

1.) devote a terrain slot to "Frozen lake"

2.) Event which turns "Lake" to normal ocean at appropriate turn intervals. Winter="Frozen lake," which IS a land tile and allows units to stop and pass. Summer=back to ocean, and any units caught on the tile are killed.

3.) Get appropriate graphix

This is also how to create an ice-bound ocean. Drawback=BIG danger for ships. There is also the assumption that this is for short duration scenarios; If you have less than 15 season changes (or so), it works. If the scen is one of a century or more, it won't. An event is required for each season change.

[Von Bert]

@exile

mmhh.. lake that become "frozen" ??
yes..
or also.. as i have some "little lake terrain" in mind..
then we can create randomly on them some "frozen-unit"..maybe they will not attck.. but can become an obstacle to move around or block an offensive..

and use yours as a special 1time events.. causing some Knight to acctually be killed in a newly-created-ocean.. SPLASH !

[Elensar]

Splash indeed. : )
But it seems the Teutonic Knights lost that battle the normal way, so while a neat idea, trying too hard to represent that part of the event may not be worth it.

Werd: Excellent quotes, though I must raise an eyebrow or two at the numbers at Kulikov.

Its possible but seems highly unlikely they were at the higher end of that range.

Still, interesting possibilities here.

My question for the designer:
Historically, a Major Defeat with heavy casualties was serious trouble. As in, "Rebuild? How?"
How hard do you intend to make it for the Order to recover from these defeats? Simply "X units lost" won't really cripple your position.

Unless you alter shield costs to something steep, like in an early Medieval scenario I forget the name of (Age of Crusades, if I haven't).

Don't want to get too carried away with this, but at least make your good offensive units costly to replace.

[Von Bert]

@elensar
sure, u right, the powerful attacking values must "cost"..
or i change/adjust the "system/conversion" from DBM wargame rules..

defeats?
u mean..the one caused by events of the frozen-lake?

I think civ2 cant be very historical.. so.. i think (as usual) that different rules files are needed depending on who is human player..
then boost up AI with unist to create a good challenge..
and then another rules file for multiplayer among humans!
yep.. :P
so much work..

in the UNIST list i posted before is missing one thing..
the NUMBERS. i mean the quantity of each elements of such type to be deployed..
better troops mean then less numers.. obviously..
so .. a regular superior knights ( Kn(S)R ) as teutonic brothers..shell cost as 3 lithuanian light calvalrymen maybe..

anyway dear collegues scenario/dreamer/designer..
i thanks anybody 4 his ideas !
and wanna say that i know how much time is needed to make a good scenario.. and i wish make one for me.. for myself .. the scenario i would have loved to play..
but.. i admit i wanna make it also for you.. out there in this (un)-civ-planet..
(it shows i drank ? ok.. i did a little.. i ll be a bit more slow on photoshop.. )
and is a pity we.. "WE" the players dont have the power to modify The Game to our needs.. modify the .exe ..
make a Hex. based civ maybe !
anyway .. good sunday everybody !
btw..
teutonic order will be BLACK ! and evil !
as in Eisenstein movie of 1938 (maybe.. )
to play them.. would be as to embrace evil/nazi..
while russians will be the sunrise of tomorrow??..
("Hip Hip Hurray for socialism ! " )

ok... better i go to sleep... yep..

[Elensar]

Not just the lakes, but the battles that the Teutonic Knights were throughly slaughtered. That has to hurt big time.

I'd suggest working on a Teutonic perspective and a Polish perspective version, if you make multiple versions. This really isn't a scenario suited to "any side has a fair chance" however you balance it.

[Von Bert]

you right .. the concept of develop a scenario for one side is correct.. and if ll be able to finsih it.. mainly it will be for Teutonic at first.. obviously.. (they r much more appealing then prussian tribes... yep.. )

battles ? well.. if teutonic knight have 8-3 as stats.. against lithuanian light cav maybe as 3-2 .. if attacked, in open field they will risk anyway.. and with COST.. the knight ll cost maybe 3 times..SO..teutonic player wil have to decide when/wich units to "Buy".. cause the cost ll be high..
and the "barbarians" many...

[McMonkey]

I just wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your decision to make that game (initially at least) for the Teutonics only. As you say, you can change the stast for PBEM if desired.

I know I am going over old ground but I think creating the game for one nation means you can make it much more historical and challenging. All the events can be tailored to prop up the AI and challenge the player.

From what I have read so far the Teutonic Knights were a bit of an elite band and were surviving on their wits and prowess in battle. Their decline (in my limited understanding) seems to have come when their enemies became more organised and well led (Nevski / Crasimir / Dmitri). This could be represented later in the game by new (tougher) eastern units that would match and outnumber the Teutons and push them back (with a bit of help from events!).

Sorry if I am going over old ground but I just wanted to add my two pennys worth!

[Von Bert]

Hello..
so.. i'm now at this point:

- UNITS : graphic done, and alos the new-counter-version.. if i ll finish this.. maybe i ll give "alternate graphic" files4 units..
- TERRAIN : more or less done.. and will be "dark" somehow..
in other post someone says that the map MUST be light as units are dark.. sure.. but for rules of contrast.. if i make the map dark.. units must be lightful and colorfoul then..
i try.. maybe for this i like try with the "counters"..
- TECH TREE:... well is 1st time i have to do from scratch so.. i got difficulty to build up something that "WORKS".. and that link together all the ideas i have (or people suggest)..

make then an "absolute" tech tree for middle age ?

or make a "relative"one just trying to fix up things for the scenario ?

a mix ? (what im trying.. )

things i have to consider.. are (for MGE )??? :

1) tech aspects that i cant change ( ie. railroad will ALWAYS allow eng. to create railway... so.. i suppose in this scenario i DONT have to use it , right ? )

2) use some tech to make units become obsolete , i.e NO-teutonic, NO-Russian, so to make them DONT have some type of units..

i ll try...

[Exile]

Don't sweat it.

Why worry about it? I can recall seeing a scenario where one of the techs was "windshield wipers."

Just go for it, think technological history, and wiki every stray thought.

[McMonkey]

Tech Tree

One thing I have been doing with my current scenarios is using the original tech tree.
- First I photocopy the Advances Chart (if you don't have a copy I think you can download it somewhere or I could scan it if needed)
- I then highlight all the slots that have special effects (ie. RR, Industrialization). There is a list of all these slots at the following link: http://coc.apolyton.net/guides/tot_advances.shtml (Its for ToT but is about the same as MGE!)
- If they will mess up the game I replace them with the extra techs.
- I then rename all the techs to something appropriate. The order is quite easy to work out as we are all farmiliar with the original tree.
- I then edit the units and technologies prerequisites so they appear on the tree in the correct place.

This is a quick and easy way of producing a tree that works, though it is not very original. All the trees I started from scratch ended up with too many loose ends and atal loops!

Just an idea

[Eivind IV]

Re: Don't sweat it.

Originally posted by Exile
Why worry about it? I can recall seeing a scenario where one of the techs was "windshield wipers."

La Belle Epoque. Windshield Wipers, a revolutionizing tech in the automobile business

(Although in the newest version with the new tech tree, this has been removed)

For the tech tree, if in trouble, use my tech tree template. I've been using this for all my newest scenarios, and can asure you it's very helpful. Basically all you need is to rename techs. You'll need to do some additional modifications though. All the "controversial" tech's are removed, so you'll need to introudce them yourself also if you need them.

Tech Tree Thread: http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=137028