Units' limit

[AGRICOLA]

Just a quick word for now. I'll send you the file later today.

I tried the TOT nolimits civ2.exec with Empire of the Rising Sun. The bad news is that it did not seem to work with a scen.

One possibility is that it works okay if it used to begin a game or from the very beginning in developing a scen.

[Mercator]

I'll leave it to Agricola then... If you still don't receive it, I could upload it, say, using Apolyton uploads...

Hmmm, if there's no other explanation for the scenario not working, maybe Civ2 saves something in the savegame too... You could probably test that by comparing first-turn savegames (on the same map, preferably with fixed starting locations to mimize differences). One created with an unpatched Civ2 and one created with this unit no-limits patch.

I'm not entirely sure where unit ID's are used.

There must have been a reason for there being only ~2000 units. Either unit ID's or memory space or both (or perhaps something else entirely) could be restricted somewhere that isn't changed yet by this fix.

[AGRICOLA]

LOOKING GOOD

The TOT nolimit Civ2.exe probably works for scenarios if the nolimit .exe is used throughout the development of a scen. Here’s what I’ve done to test this.

1. Set up a new TOT folder, called TOTNL, dedicated solely to nolimit TOT. This was done to eliminate both the need to switch .exe files and any possible confusion as to which version was in use.

2. Installed TOT from CD into TOTNL.

3. Copied the TOT 1.1 patch into TOTNL and installed the patch. From what I could tell, installation changed only files in the TOTNL folder and did not affect anything in the vanilla TOT folder.

4. To make absolutely sure that replacing the TOT Civ2. exe with the TOT nolimit Civ2.exe did not change anything else, used hex editor to copy the contents of Skyer’s nolimit .exe file and paste them (overwrite) into the vanilla TOT .exe file in TOTNL.

5. Set up TOTNL shortcut to desktop.

6. Used the TOTNL shortcut to open a 2040UNITS.sav file which I had set up some time ago using the nolimit .exe.

7. Saved it as 2040UNITS.scn.

8. Used the TOTNL shortcut to load the 2040UNITS.scn and both cheated and built additional units. There was no problem in passing through the 2048 units barrier.

9. The scen can be opened with vanilla TOT but attempting to exceed the 2048 units limit generates an error message.

10. A 2060UNITS.sav file cannot be opened by vanilla TOT. There is an immediate error message.

11. TOTNL will open a vanilla TOT .scn or .sav file with no obvious problems.


I’ve attached the 2040UNITS.scn. Could people please check what I’ve done to ensure that I haven’t screwed up in spades somewhere along the line.

Any suggestions? Criticisms? Are there any volunteers, more computer literate than I, who could do more sphisticated testing than I can?

[Mercator]

I think that test wasn't particularly useful to be honest.

A better test to check what you said earlier would be to do it the other way around. Use unpatched ToT to create a 2040 units savegame and create a scenario with it.

Then try to exceed the unit limit on both vanilla and no-limits.

If there are any more problems than just exceeding the limit, I'd expect them to only show up in specific cases while playing the game, so a simple procedure like this wouldn't really help there.

And the double install and hex-editing (steps 1-4) really aren't necessary. You can just, say, call the no-limits version "civ2nolimits.exe", put it in your ToT directory alongside the regular one (i.e. "civ2.exe"), and have shortcuts pointing to both.

Running Civ2 does not change any files, except create log files, so none of this is necessary. Except perhaps when you want to run 2 copies at the same time.

I think it's good that you're testing, but what exactly is it that you want to test?

Hmmm, also, Skyer, how did you remove that limit? Did you remove the maximum unit test altogether, or did you increase the maximum of that test? Because if you removed it altogether there would be problems when someone reaches *gasp*32,768 units, wouldn't there?

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Mercator
I think that test wasn't particularly useful to be honest.

Please see below.

Originally posted by Mercator
A better test to check what you said earlier would be to do it the other way around. Use unpatched ToT to create a 2040 units savegame and create a scenario with it.

Then try to exceed the unit limit on both vanilla and no-limits.

It's already been done.

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I'll be doing somewhat of a test in a few days when I resume playtesting Patine's Empire of the Rising Sun. At the start of the scen, I'll cheat the total number of units to around 2048 so that the scen will be played with more than that number.

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I tried the TOT nolimits civ2.exec with Empire of the Rising Sun. The bad news is that it did not seem to work with a scen.

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
6. Used the TOTNL shortcut to open a 2040UNITS.sav file which I had set up some time ago using the nolimit .exe.

7. Saved it as 2040UNITS.scn.

8. Used the TOTNL shortcut to load the 2040UNITS.scn and both cheated and built additional units. There was no problem in passing through the 2048 units barrier.

Using the TOT nolimits patch does not allow a scen created with TOT to exceed 2048 units. The 2048 limit can be exceeded only if a scen is both created and played using the TOT nolimit patch.

Originally posted by Mercator
I think it's good that you're testing, but what exactly is it that you want to test?

Simple:
1. In general, does the TOT nolimit patch work, and under what conditions?
2. In particular, will it solve Heresson's problem.

Originally posted by Heresson
units limit is more important. You see, not only I have to click Too Many Units pop-up 20 times a turn, not only I do not produce new units, but my evnts do not work because they involve creating new units.

The patch apparently won't do a thing for Heresson because he has created his scen with vanilla TOT. As far as I can tell, he'd have to start with the basic map and rebuild cities, terrain improvements and units from scratch, using the nolimits patch.


I think that you had a good idea when you said :

Originally posted by Mercator
Hmmm, if there's no other explanation for the scenario not working, maybe Civ2 saves something in the savegame too... You could probably test that by comparing first-turn savegames (on the same map, preferably with fixed starting locations to mimize differences). One created with an unpatched Civ2 and one created with this unit no-limits patch.

However, how does one create nearly identical savegames? When I created a simple map with 3 civs and used it to start both TOT and nolimits TOT games, I got 1400+ differences (found and counted by fhred hexeditor) between the two first turn savegames.

Many of these can be ignored on the basis of their locations in specific sections of the game saves but that still leaves a mass of data to go through. For starters, is there any way to either completely eliminate goody huts and resources from a game to the point where there is no record of them in a savegame or make them identical when a map is used to start a patched and an unpatched game? Is there a way to make TOT use the civs and the starting points that are specified when a map is created?

Do you have time to do what you suggested? I'm sure that you are right about Civ2 saving something in the savegame, but I'm too hard pressed by other committments to check this out.


@Heresson
Did you get the files? I sent them two days ago.

[Heresson]

I didn't get the files, but I've downloaded them from here after all. thank You all. While it's sad that I'll have to place everything on the map again, it's still better than the l;imit, isn;t it.

[Mercator]

You might want to think again if you want to do it, though, Heresson... Because everyone who wants to play your scenario will also need that patched Civ2. Would it really be worth the trouble? A lot of people might decide not to bother.

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
It's already been done.

Ah, ok then...

Simple:
1. In general, does the TOT nolimit patch work, and under what conditions?
2. In particular, will it solve Heresson's problem.

(1) Will need a lot more testing. I don't know exactly where unit ID's come into play, anywhere they do it could give problems...

However, how does one create nearly identical savegames? When I created a simple map with 3 civs and used it to start both TOT and nolimits TOT games, I got 1400+ differences (found and counted by fhred hexeditor) between the two first turn savegames.

For starters, is there any way to either completely eliminate goody huts and resources from a game to the point where there is no record of them in a savegame or make them identical when a map is used to start a patched and an unpatched game? Is there a way to make TOT use the civs and the starting points that are specified when a map is created?

Well, that's easy. Create a custom map with a fixed resource seed and fixed starting positions in the map editor. Then when you start up, start with 7 civs, and select the same civs in both games.

Do you have time to do what you suggested? I'm sure that you are right about Civ2 saving something in the savegame, but I'm too hard pressed by other committments to check this out.

Yeah... I don't have any time either...

[AGRICOLA]

Well, that's easy. Create a custom map with a fixed resource seed and fixed starting positions in the map editor. Then when you start up, start with 7 civs, and select the same civs in both games.

I just tried this. I set the resource seed to 3; created 7 3x3 islands, each one the starting location of a different civ - Romans, Babylonians, Germans, Egyptians, Americans, Greeks and Indians; and saved the map as a .mp file. Then the map was used to start both a TOT and a patched game.

In both cases, Romans were selected as the human civ and neither huts, resources nor player start positions were randomized. This produced 2 very different starts: the names of the other six civs were random and they had random start locations, sometimes 2 on the same small island. The huts and resources were ok. The preceding was also true if TOT or patched TOT was used to open two games.

The two first turn saves showed 250+ differences.

I know that in Civ II, assigning civ names and start positions in a .mp file produces predictable results if the file is used to start a game. Apparently this is not the case with TOT.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
This produced 2 very different starts: the names of the other six civs were random and they had random start locations, sometimes 2 on the same small island.

Well, clearly. When you start up ToT you have to choose "Customize Rules" and then check "Select Computer Opponents" rather than have ToT randomly pick your opponents.

I know that in Civ II, assigning civ names and start positions in a .mp file produces predictable results if the file is used to start a game. Apparently this is not the case with TOT.

Civ2 and ToT are no different in this. If you assign starting positions for all civs then the result is predictable. Otherwise, the unassigned civs are placed randomly. But even then you don't control which civs appear. Only with the "Select Computer Opponents" option can you choose your own opponents.

[Heresson]

I can attach edited civ2 to my scn.

[Patashu]

Hold on. Can or can't the ToT more then 2048 units patch stack with the no-limits patch?

[AGRICOLA]

Huh? Could you please rephrase your question so that it can be understood? For starters, some kind of verb in the second sentence would be a help.

[Boco]

Originally posted by Patashu
Hold on. Can or can't the ToT more then 2048 units patch stack with the no-limits patch?

Bocoogle Translator (use at your own risk):

• "It holds over.* Can the patch supporting >2048 units also support >1 unit per square?"

OR

• "It holds over.* Does the patch supporting >2048 units also possess the other altered limits of the (Brenzaida's?) "no limits" patch?"

______________________________
* "Hold on" -> Google Translate (English - Italian) -> "tenga sopra" -> Google Translate (Italian - English) -> "It holds over"

[Bostero]

looks like for some people the edited pacth works( example Agricola) but for other it doesn't work( Techumesh ). when it doesn't work, it raises a msg box error.
why do you think this happen?