OCC 2005 Game 1

[Peaster]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Are we aiming to post by Friday?

RJM at Sleeper's

I thought we agreed to post 500AD by yesterday [not sure], and I rushed to do so. But we are still missing you, Ele and Grigor. Also, I have not had time to digest the comments from the previous week, so I am not in a hurry, for once. I do not object to a Friday extension.

Maybe we should slow down? A week to post and 3 days for discussion? Also, I think we need a leader to decide these things and make them clear. IMO Ele can have this job if he wants it. Otherwise, I nominate you for the job, since you have been most active on organizational matters.

[rjmatsleepers]

I expect to be able to post an AD 500 save shortly. I'm very happy for Elephant to act as our leader.

I do get the impression we need to have a bit more time to play the turns. I'm learning a lot from this exercise, and I think it's important to keep as many people with us as possible.

So target to post saves by Friday and complete discussion by Monday suits me.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Here is my log for the next 500 years. I tried to keep the AI civs researching in a direction that suited us, but didn't always succeed. And twice I forgot to part rush a van, so we should have at least 1 more.

RJM at Sleeper's

AD 1 sell temple, gift invention to Aztecs.

AD 20 size 18, celebrating, but no surplus food part rush van. swap with germans for University and mathematics

AD 40 gift mathematics to Aztecs

AD 60 part rush van

AD 80 at last grow to size 19, but again no food surplus

AD 100 part rush van. we have hides as a supply commodity. Gift mathematics to babs.

AD 120 size 20 but no food surplus

AD 140 part rush van

AD 160

AD 180 part rush van

AD 200 grow to size 21 and celebration ends. Coal->berlin (u) 118

AD 220 democracy->economics revolt; can resume celebration, but no food surplus yet. swap with germans for economics. rush university. gift economics to babs and they give us 100.

AD 240 start researching astronomy

AD 260 swap with mongols for iron working

AD 300 Astronomy-> navigation; restart celebration

AD 320 hides->Leipzig (d) 236. gift astronomy to babs

AD 340

AD 360 Navigation->physics

AD 380 hides->Leipzig (u) 120

AD 400

AD 420 hide supply in Cardiff ends. hides->Hamburg (u) 86

AD 440 physics->theory of gravity

AD 460

AD 480 swap with Chinese for bridge building and they give us 100. gift bridge building to Greeks and Mongols

AD 500 hides->Leipzig (u) 118. gift babs iron working they give us 50. gift bridge building to germans

[rjmatsleepers]

Strategy discussion - non spoiler (I think)

Originally posted by Peaster
I don't know whether to save vans for WoW's or use them for trade.. tried a little of both.

So long as

a) I'm getting more money for vans than it costs me to rush them

b) there is still a free commodity,

I build the vans and send them to trade.

For most of this turnset it cost 50 odd to build a van and I got more than 100 for delivering it (even undemanded) so I churned them out. Building from scratch would have cost 125, so I wasn't convinced that was worth it. After gunpowder, starting from scratch would cost 210, but an overseas delivery of an undemanded freight brings in more than 200 so it's worth it, if you have a suitable way of transporting it.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Afterthought: It could be worth rushing from scratch in order to get the beakers, even if the delivery bonus is a bit less than the cost. The difference can be made up by a donation from our allies. However, I like to have enough gold to rush the city improvements, so I prefer to make a profit on my vans. At one point I tried an alternative destination to check the bonus (I'm not good at working it out!) but it was too small.]

[solo]

My criterion for vans is to trade if they will bring in over 200 gold, since 50 shields costs that much when rushing the remainder of a wonder. The trade also adds beakers towards researching the current tech, so sometimes I'll take a lower payment because of this.

[Elephant]

Let's make it Wednesday for the AD500 saves, then discuss till Friday. I've not read all the other posts, but play whichever save you like (or even two?) and we'll compare Wednesday the 27th thru Friday the 29th. Then we'll go AD500-1000 from Friday to the next Wednesday and discuss till the next Friday. How's that?

[Peaster]

It is OK with me. Really, almost any rules are OK with me, as long as we have some. Thanks, E.

[Elephant]

Elephant log from AD1 to AD500:

Pyramids in Leipzig; Ger change to HG (opening?)
20ad: CARDIFF size 18
...Germans exch Inv for UNIVERSITY, San for MATH
40ad: RB University
HG in Athens
80ad: CARDIFF size 19 (frantically irrigating)
100ad: HIDES caravan!
Germans and Mongols contact, make peace (whew!)
120ad: DEMOCRACY (immed revolt); start Astron
140ad: HIDES (whoo-hoo - max Taxes for RBing...)
160ad: CARDIFF size 20, drop WLTPD
...Dip makes embassy with Germans
HIDES
180ad: HIDES
200ad: Coal to Berlin(8,nd): 122g/b,+12TR
Germans dev Econ (figures)
HIDES
220ad: HIDES
240ad: HIDES
260ad: HIDES
ASTRONOMY; start Bridge
280ad: tough choice- use 6x Hides for COPERNICUS
300ad: HIDES
320ad: HIDES
340ad: HIDES
BRIDGE; start Chem
360ad: Greeks demand 150g to keep alliance -no, dissolve
HIDES
380ad: HIDES
400ad: GEMS! (oh well)
CHEMISTRY; start TheoryGravity
420ad: 1st Food
440ad: 2nd Food
460ad: 3rd Food
Chinese dev Gunpowder (and we've got Chemisty...)
THEORY GRAVITY; start Nav
480ad: 4th Food
500ad: 208g,276b,3t@276b,Inadequate/806b

My initial thoughts on this round went out the window when I discovered Hides back in supply on getting up to size 19. I'm not sure how that fits with Samson's formulas, but I was not going to make the mistake of letting them go again, even if it was only for a few turns. Turned out it lasted long enough to make 13 camels, but I felt I had to cash in 6 of them for Copernicus when I finally got Math from the tight-fisted Germans and could research Astronomy. I slipped a University in there at some point, and did a discovery-revolt to Democracy too. I stopped WLTPD at size 20 because I did not have enough irrigated land to continue. But at AD500 I've got Chemistry and the Chinese have Gunpowder, so Explosives and Engineers are just one more research away, once I get 4 more Food caravans for Newtons. I've still got several Hides and one Gems, which should probably go somewhere I can keep the supply unblocked. The critical road to Berlin finally has a bridge, and just requires about 4 more segments.

[Elephant]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
AD 1 sell temple, gift invention to Aztecs.

@#$%&*!!!



a chastened Elephant admits he forgot...

[Elephant]

Looking back at Solo's 1-500 round now, we were pretty close at AD1 but he was positioned to make much more out of the round than I was. Plus I digressed to make hay out of Hides. He has now run out of extra caravans, while I've got a bunch laid up, so I might make the time up in the next round. Overall, though, he blew me away this round.

[solo]

Originally posted by Elephant Turned out it lasted long enough to make 13 camels, but I felt I had to cash in 6 of them for Copernicus

I think that's what made the difference, as I never had to commit a commodity caravan to a wonder. My payoffs to a different continent paid enough extra to make it more convenient to rush most of the shields in wonders using gold. The extra high-paying deliveries also boosted the pace of research. The road you've built may pay off, but it will be too late, I'm afraid.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Elephant

My initial thoughts on this round went out the window when I discovered Hides back in supply on getting up to size 19. I'm not sure how that fits with Samson's formulas, but I was not going to make the mistake of letting them go again, even if it was only for a few turns. Turned out it lasted long enough to make 13 camels, but I felt I had to cash in 6 of them for Copernicus when I finally got Math from the tight-fisted Germans and could research Astronomy. I slipped a University in there at some point, and did a discovery-revolt to Democracy too. I stopped WLTPD at size 20 because I did not have enough irrigated land to continue. But at AD500 I've got Chemistry and the Chinese have Gunpowder, so Explosives and Engineers are just one more research away, once I get 4 more Food caravans for Newtons. I've still got several Hides and one Gems, which should probably go somewhere I can keep the supply unblocked. The critical road to Berlin finally has a bridge, and just requires about 4 more segments.

I've downloaded this save and will comment further tomorrow. Are we expecting a contribution from Grigor?

I notice that you rushed a hides van every turn (presumably at a cost of 150 gold per van). I intended to rush every 2nd turn (I forgot a couple of times ) at a cost of (roughly) 43 gold per van. I delivered 1 demanded van (236) and 3 un-demanded vans (should have been roughly 120 per van).

For you, 2 turns cost 300 and would have brought in roughly 300 plus 300 beakers. (I'm not sure whether you actually delivered any and you used 6 for a wonder.)

For me 2 turns cost 43 and brought in roughly 150 plus 150 beakers.

You get 150 extra beakers and I get 107 extra gold. Question: is it worth spending 107 gold for 150 beakers?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Grigor]

I have had an annoying cold for two weeks and have had to sleep through my playing time. But I will be back for the next cycle.

In an OCC game, tech speed is more valuable than anything, so any amount you spend for beakers is worth it if you have the gold...

I like Elephant's save, and especially his excellent opportunism. Those hides vans will pay off in the next cycle big time.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Grigor
I have had an annoying cold for two weeks and have had to sleep through my playing time. But I will be back for the next cycle.

Hope you're better soon - spring colds are a real bummer.

Originally posted by Grigor
In an OCC game, tech speed is more valuable than anything, so any amount you spend for beakers is worth it if you have the gold...

Well yesish. If those beakers are used to learn a technology that would have been learned one turn later by one of the AI civs, you may not have gained very much. Also, the money may allow you to keep the research rate at 100% when without it you need to increase tax. If so, more money may give you more beakers in the long run. However, I don't think Elephant's save actually risks running out of money.

Originally posted by Grigor
I like Elephant's save, and especially his excellent opportunism. Those hides vans will pay off in the next cycle big time.

I also like Elephant's save. The vans will pay off, with a lot of money and beakers. (But Elephant, why have you kept them back rather than delivering them?) Probably the delivery bonuses will make up for the smaller amount of gold and the fewer technologies in Elephant's save, but I'd like to see it played through just to make sure. I'd like to continue with my save for a while just to see how it pans out - I'm from Missouri

RJM at Sleeper's

[Elephant]

I anticipated the Hides being a short-term phenomena, so I tried to make one every turn I could until they ran out. They actually lasted longer than I expected, so I turned six of them into Copernicus and saved the rest. I need a ship to deliver them, but I was rushing food vans to prep for Newtons while researching ToG (which came before I was ready) so I delayed making the ship. Now I'm researching Nav while finishing the food vans, so I thought I'd wait till I could build a Caravel rather than a Trireme. I'm from New Jersey, where a better ship is always worth waiting for... as long as it goes somewhere besides New Jersey...