OCC 2005 Game 1

[Elephant]

Here's my 1000BC to 500BC abbreviated log:

1000bc: contact Germans, alliance, gift 25g
...bring back 3rd caravan
950bc: contact Mongols,gift to Enthus,alliance,gift MAPS
Hides
875bc: Hides
850bc: 4x Hides for Marco Polo
825bc: Marco Polo Manipulation-
- Chinese: exch for LIT, REP, alliance, sympathy
- Babylon: exch for MYST, alliance, 150g
- Aztecs: dem 50g for peace, gift to Enthus, alliance, 50g
- Greeks: demand 100g=WAR
- Germans: gift Rep, Map, sh maps, sympathy
- Mongols: gift Rep
800bc: Hut AT/AT/Elephant
...RB Market
...get Mong, Bab, Chi maps
775bc: disband Warrior for Hides
...exch Aztecs for CONSTRUCTION
750bc: Dye to Berlin 184g/b, +4TR
...gift Maps to Aztecs
...Mong 50g, Ger 25g
...disband 2nd Warrior for Hides
REVOLT - REPUBLIC
725bc: RB 3rd Hides
WLTCD
PHILOSOPHY; freebie MEDICINE; start Bank
700bc: disband Ele for Coal?
...Mong 25g, Aztecs maps
(Germans dev Cst, Chinese dev Philos - not gifting)
675bc: CARDIFF size 6
...4x caravans for COLOSSUS
650bc: CARDIFF size 7
...Aztecs exch for WHEEL
...Beads to Berlin 207g/b,+6TR
...disband Horse for Colosseum
Greeks make peace with Mongols
BANKING; start Eng
625bc: CARDIFF size 8
...gift Greeks to CF, peace, alliance, 75g
...Chinese 75g; Babs 25g, Aztecs 25g
...disband Dip for Aquaduct
600bc: CARDIFF size 9
575bc: CARDIFF size 10
Coal caravan
Babs + Aztecs dev Seafaring
550bc: CARDIFF size 11
...Chinese 25g
525bc: CARDIFF size 12
1st Food caravan
ENGINEERING; start San
500bc: Chinese 25g

And the save:

[Elephant]

And here is 500BC to AD1:

475bc: Babs 25g
Greeks dev Eng (still not checking!)
450bc: Chinese 25g
2nd Food
425bc: Babs 50g
400bc: Aztecs 50g
SANITATION; start Horse (only one - #20 too)
375bc: Greeks 75g
GL in Beijing
another Barb landing NW
3rd Food
325bc: Chinese 50g, Germans 75g
finish Dip in defenseless CARDIFF
275bc: 4th Food
225bc: bribe Barb Archer to try for Leader
5th Food
200bc: 6x caravans for SHAKES, frees Coal again
175bc: Greeks 150g, Babs 50g
WLTCD
150bc: Aztecs exch for SEAFARING
...RB Sewers
125bc: CARDIFF size 13
...Chinese 50g
...RB Harbor
100bc: CARDIFF size 14
...Aztecs 50g; Chinese exch for HORSEBACK
...RB Bank
restart Invention (minds to busy for Iron or Math)
75bc: CARDIFF size 15
...Germans 50g
...irrigation lagging, RB Settler
Germans dev University!
50bc: everyone's building Wonders!
25bc: CARDIFF size 16
Coal again
INVENTION; start Dem (@#$%&*!!!)
AD1: CARDIFF size 17

And the save:

[Elephant]

In comparison to Solo's progress before AD1, I should have stayed small longer and used the Hides caravans for deliveries. The danger there is that I might lock in early higher base trade routes with overseas cities, preventing the potential Road/Rail bonus with Berlin in the AD years. Using my spare Settler to build part of the road to Berlin also kept me from irrigating and roading around the city radius in preparation for the Shakes growth above size 12. When I finally realized how behind I was I had to pop out another settler to help it along. I also used the 3rd commodity repeatedly for Wonders rather than getting an early enough 3rd trade route, cutting my trade arrows and likely leading to a blocked commodity after I grow over size 20.

Overall, I'm not doing really bad, just way off my usual decent OCC game, with a tough shot at breaking a 1500 landing.

[Elephant]

Some thoughts on some earlier exchanges:

I've always seen the 8 turn wait after an alliance is first made. Try to get something out of them before you break contact, then mark the 8 turn date and make sure they are Cordial or better before asking. If they don't give anything, gift them a tech and lay off a turn or two.

The rule about Power Level is usual but NOT absolute - I have gotten occasional gifts out of AI civs that are lower than me. They need to be Enthus or Worsh, and asking right after a tech gift sometimes works. But it is still the exception rather than the rule.

Another thing to remind everyone is that milking alliances is MUCH easier playing Classic/2.42 rather than MGE...

Shakes vs Colossus: Several factors should be considered, including trade available from terrain, alliances that might produce gold, tech and wonder pressure from AI, and trade routes. The two good city spots in this game have some rivers and some ocean (in opposite proportions, it seems). Ocean pays off once Seafaring and a Harbor are in place, which can be earlier if you can get it from an AI; rivers usually flow through grass (here there were more rivered plains, which I though a bit unusual) so the extra food is available without irrigating. I prefer rivers because later in the game SuperHighways will add extra trade arrows due to the bridges that ocean tiles cannot match. Rivers also act as roads for movement and trade arrows, and give defensive bonuses. In this game the Greeks had Iron when I built Marco Polo, but I was so tight on getting Sanitation before the 20th tech that I had to forgo Iron, then the only AIs with it started building wonders and refused to exchange. Very frustrating. Anyway, if you can get the trade routes in early enough (cannot over-emphasize how important that is to having unblocked commodity supplies after you grow your city!) you should have enough trade to provide luxuries for WL celebrations without Colossus. Solo's achievement of this without even a Temple is noteworthy. The AI usually go for Pyramids, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens first, neglecting Colossus and Lighthouse if they have any other unbuilt wonders. I've often looked over their tech list and gifted them something like Engineering in order to keep them interested in more advanced wonders. Beware, though - if another AI builds KingRich they could suddenly switch to and complete Colossus if they are already beyond 200 shields. Colossus is a bigger boost for bigger cities, so I try to get it in at the latest when I'm in the size 8-12 range. Personally, I prefer to build Shakes when I am getting close to Sanitation, unless I am getting competition from the AI over Astronomy and Copernicus.

[rjmatsleepers]

I've downloaded Ellie's AD 1 save and will look at it later today and post comments sometime tomorrow. I've also downloaded Solo's AD 500 save, but I'll try to avoid looking at it for the moment. The log looks very impressive. I wonder what he could have done with the other site. Solo, can we encourage you to pick up one of the 1000 BC saves and play it through to AD 1?

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Elephant
I've always seen the 8 turn wait after an alliance is first made. Try to get something out of them before you break contact, then mark the 8 turn date and make sure they are Cordial or better before asking. If they don't give anything, gift them a tech and lay off a turn or two.

I looked back at my log to AD 1 and it seems to support the initial wait period. However, after that wait there doesn't seem to be any limit on the frequency with which you can get gifts. BTW, has anyone worked out the significance of the negative replies? I assume that "We sympathise", etc suggests it's safe to keep asking. Is it known under what conditions the AI will ask for a gift if you approach them? Similarly when will they break off the alliance if you ask for a gift?

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


However, after that wait there doesn't seem to be any limit on the frequency with which you can get gifts. BTW, has anyone worked out the significance of the negative replies? I assume that "We sympathise", etc suggests it's safe to keep asking. Is it known under what conditions the AI will ask for a gift if you approach them? Similarly when will they break off the alliance if you ask for a gift?

RJM at Sleeper's

After the waiting period you can ask for a gift every turn and will get some gold as long as they have it and as long as you have not climbed too much higher in power (the amount of gold you have is one factor making up your power rating). However, asking too often may get you shut off for being a pest. I don't like to overdo it because I want to make sure the lines of communication remain open for tech trading and gifting opportunities, which I don't want to have fouled up for being too chatty.

I agree with Elephant that the power rating rule is not definitive, but is more like a good "rule of thumb", but it must also be remembered that relative power ratings must be updated before their effect becomes apparent. I suspect that sometimes the rating that is displayed may not be what is currently in effect due to the sequence in the way things are programmed.

I have not run any exhaustive tests, but in general, the tenor of the AI responses depend on their attitude towards you. As long as you keep them happy enough with tech gifts, they will remain faithful and undemanding, at least until the late stages of the game when Space Flight is discovered. After that they all can make demands and even a worshipper may turn on you, if he has not been made that way quite recently.

I have also looked at Elephant's 1 AD save, which is ahead of mine in many respects, but behind in techs. I got some good boosts towards learning many techs during that turnset because of my caravan deliveries, whereas Elephant is ahead in the race to city improvements and wonders, since I lack the Colossus, a marketplace, bank and stock exchange. However, I made up for those deficiencies quickly afterwards by benefiting from additional caravan deliveries.

Without the aid of a station city, it may take too long to accrue much benefit out of the road from Cardiff to Berlin. Elephant's bad luck in trading for AI tech has also frustrated his very promising start. Even so, if I were to try my hand starting from his 500 BC save, I suspect I would not be able to do any better than either of us have by 1 AD, because of the superior trading opportunities offered by my choice for the city site.

[Elephant]

I have seen two phrases the AI uses in negative responses to requests for gifts: "sympathy" and "patience thin". When I get the first one I wait an extra turn and try again. When I get the second I gift an extra tech, wait another turn and try again. If I don't get anything twice in a row I give them a 4-5 turn wait and try again. I usually ask every other turn if their treasury is above 50g, unless I'm sitting on a lot.

Another thing that might "badger" them is asking for maps every turn, which I do when I'm tracking a Transport or Engineer I want to bribe. If it is done one every 3-4 turns it is not so much a problem.

[rjmatsleepers]

I've had a look at Elephant's save. It seems the best of the three that use the 4 special site. However, there is a downside that the German cities are further away - no conveniently located city at the end of the road north! So vans take longer to arrive and the trade bonus is more difficult to obtain.

Originally posted by solo

If I were to try my hand starting from [elephant's] 500 BC save, I suspect I would not be able to do any better than either of us have by 1 AD, because of the superior trading opportunities offered by my choice for the city site.

The trading from your choice of city has been really impressive. The trading has certainly made up for the reduced number of trade arrows from the city site. Will this continue for the rest of the game, or will the additional arrows from the other site eventually prevail?

Incidentally, without the benefit of black clicking, this appears to be a matter of luck. There might have been an island civ north of the 4 special site while the continent might have continued a long way south of the starting site. Or is there more to it than this?

Anyway what next? Peaster, have you played any turns yet? Shall we (except Solo) play on from Elephant's save?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

Well, I like the best-ball method [though I agree solo's experiment is interesting]. So, if you like Ele's save (and I assume Ele does), let's go with that. I am a little busy, but can probably post later today.

[solo]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
The trading from your choice of city has been really impressive. The trading has certainly made up for the reduced number of trade arrows from the city site. Will this continue for the rest of the game, or will the additional arrows from the other site eventually prevail?

Incidentally, without the benefit of black clicking, this appears to be a matter of luck. There might have been an island civ north of the 4 special site while the continent might have continued a long way south of the starting site. Or is there more to it than this?

My choice of city site depended on the following factors:

1) Hides was in strong supply, as I mentioned earlier. By itself, this was enough to convince me to set up here.

2) The only thing this site lacked was a forth trade special, but this is not much of a handicap, given the fact that ALL the other tiles were good trade arrow producers.

3) Wandering wastes a few turns that could be used instread for early research and building of roads, etc.

4) I had access to the sea, and did not know if the other site did. I needed to be able to build a trireme to trade with other continents. In the vast majority of games, another continent with AI is often within easy reach of the starting position, so black-clicking is not necessary to confirm this. MPE finds the best trading partners very easily. Any bad luck with continent positioning would have also been effect for the other site.

5) The wildcards for this site were quite impressive and useful to me as a trader. Gems was the supply wildcard. Gems caravans pay a very good bonus and they are almost always in demand in the early part of the game. After 32 techs are acquired, the commodity wildcards for this site look even more promising, since they are going to be coal for supply and demand. Since they are the same, then coal will become the demand wildcard and oil will replace coal as the secondary supply wildcard later on when frieghts are in play. Oil provides the best payoffs and when a large AI city is given many techs plus Automobile, it is very likely to be demanding oil.

So, to conclude, the commodity wildcards for this site could not have been better. Couple this fact with the strong supply of hides and an almost certain chance of overseas AI to trade with, my opinion was that I had to be nuts if I were to decide to wander around looking for something that 'might' be a little better.

I think Samson's discoveries about commodity supply and demand, plus my own discoveries of techniques for refreshing commodity supplies, have increased the trading opportunities beyond what was normally expected in OCC games.

[Peaster]

OK - This is from Ele's 1AD save. I had to deal with about 20 barbs, so I didn't make many van deliveries. I don't know whether to save vans for WoW's or use them for trade.. tried a little of both. There was some demand in Germany for Hides, but I guess it dried up while I fought the barbs. Actually there was a size 1 city interested in Hides, but when I got the German map next turn to find it, it was gone (!).

I got demo, ToG, econ/univ (both from Germs) and astro. I built univ, stock ex, and 6 vans for Cope's.

[rjmatsleepers]

I've downloaded P's AD 500 save, but I'll avoid looking at it (and commenting) for a while. I may be able to play some turns today, but what with the grand prix and a few other things, I'm not sure. Are we aiming to post by Friday?

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo

So, to conclude, the commodity wildcards for this site could not have been better. Couple this fact with the strong supply of hides and an almost certain chance of overseas AI to trade with, my opinion was that I had to be nuts if I were to decide to wander around looking for something that 'might' be a little better.

I think Samson's discoveries about commodity supply and demand, plus my own discoveries of techniques for refreshing commodity supplies, have increased the trading opportunities beyond what was normally expected in OCC games.

I'm going to have to mug up on commodity supply and the "wonder bread" technique. But I still have a further question. If you were playing this as an EL game and you have cities at both locations, which would you choose for your SSC? Do the trading opportunities still play a big role or do the extra arrows now dominate? (I wouldn't be able to resist the extra arrows, but would I be making a mistake?)

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

In an EL game, the SSC gets the site with the best potential for total trade arrows. On this map, the 4-special site is superior since it would also be better for a r/rr connection to a German city(s). In EL, the wildcards for the SSC are not as important, since you can also make deliveries to it to help free up supplies. In EL, it's more a matter of picking colony wildcards that suit the SSC commodity demands.

In OCC, there are not as many options for commodity manipulations, so the wildcards and other factors listed above are more important. However, the key factor for me would be a strong supply of hides.