OCC 2005 Game 1

[rjmatsleepers]

I will look at this save later today, but to judge by the log, it looks like the best so far.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS (I've now looked at the save)

It's not a difficult decision to make. The combined impact of monarchy and celebration give Elephant's save an overwhemling advantage. I like the use of writing as the off-path tech, giving us the no support dips to explore with. (And he remembered to mine the wine mountain )

If anyone else can produce a better save than this, it will be very good indeed.

[solo]

Agreed, Elephant's save leads in evey department. Very nice!

[Peaster]

Agreed. I don't think we are waiting on anyone else. So, we can propose plans for the next N turns, starting from Ele's save. I suppose N = 40 again ?

[Elephant]

First of all, are we all agreed to a "best ball" approach - anyone want to continue with their own or another save?

Secondly, perhaps we should set some deadlines. I was thinking one round per week, is that acceptable? The initial post was last Friday, and one or two others might come it (SG was always late, as I recall - but did he express interest in OCC? how about LF?).

For the next breakpoint, I was thinking 1000BC, rather than 500BC. This gives a "snapshot" just BEFORE some major events usually happen, like first major wonder or switch to Republic (if you started with Monarchy), depending on how you sequence things.

As far as which save, mine lacks the progress toward Colossus of Peaster and Solo, and Solo's is especially interesting because of the combination of Colossus and early Republic. Solo might have gained some from an early WLTED. Still, I think he's done the best with the initial site (at least, of those who have posted so far).

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Elephant
First of all, are we all agreed to a "best ball" approach - anyone want to continue with their own or another save?

The "best ball" approach suits me.

Originally posted by Elephant Secondly, perhaps we should set some deadlines. I was thinking one round per week, is that acceptable? The initial post was last Friday, and one or two others might come it (SG was always late, as I recall - but did he express interest in OCC? how about LF?).

One round per week seems OK to me. Presumably we can be flexible. If someone says they intend to post a save, we can extend the deadline to accomodate them.

Originally posted by Elephant For the next breakpoint, I was thinking 1000BC, rather than 500BC. This gives a "snapshot" just BEFORE some major events usually happen, like first major wonder or switch to Republic (if you started with Monarchy), depending on how you sequence things.

Again that's OK by me - we play through to 1000 BC.

Originally posted by Elephant As far as which save, mine lacks the progress toward Colossus of Peaster and Solo, and Solo's is especially interesting because of the combination of Colossus and early Republic. Solo might have gained some from an early WLTED. Still, I think he's done the best with the initial site (at least, of those who have posted so far).

Do we wish to discuss strategy? For example in an EL game I would build MPE before Col - does that apply here? I assume our next technology target is trade? How about city improvements? We will need a temple and a market in due course (for growth in the WLTPD phase). At what point should we build them. Overseas trade routes will be good, but where does that put map making in our priority list?

So many questions

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

I propose that we settle on these rules, mostly collected from previous posts. If there are any objections, speak up now !!!

1) We are playing a best ball game. Within 2 days after the posting deadline, the players can talk and vote on the best save for the next turnset. [I prefer that we all use the same save, to promote better discussions].

2) For each set, the game leader [usually Elephant] will announce the results of the vote, how many turns to play, and a posting deadline [usually about 5 days after the vote].

3) Players can come and go as they please, but are requested to inform the group. Unless a player requests more time, we should not wait for them. For example, we should not wait for SG or La Fayette at this point since they have not expressed any interest in the game. They are welcome to play turnset 2, of course.

4) If there are any doubts about what is allowed, let's use the CFC GOTM rules.

5) Normally, each player should finish playing their turnset to the end of the last year [eg 1000BC] before posting a save, questions or comments. I do not feel too strongly about this though.

6) We can always change the rules later, as needed, to help the game go on.

************************************

As for the current situation, RJM, solo, and I like Elephant's save. I think Grigor is away for a few days, so we should not wait for his vote. Ele's save apparently wins.

Assuming this, I suppose [from reading the Paulicy] our strategy should be to finish BW and go for trade, construction and republic. After the library, we go for Colossus [and later... marketplace, caravans and a temple].

He recommends mapmaking whenever you can get it, but he doesn't recommend MPE.

Maybe we need a temple first ? Or will luxuries keep the city happy ? We should take our chances and pop huts. And explore for more huts and contact with the AI.

[solo]

Most of Paul's OCC games were on small maps, where early contact with the AI made MPE less vital. Even so, I think it's been proven afterwards that MPE as the first wonder is usually best in OCC. In my own game here, I was hoping to get to Trade in time to switch from the Colossus to MPE. Then the plan was to trade Republic to all of the AI and use them as research helpers.

Elephant,

Yes, I forgot all about WLTED and should have used it. A bit rusty at OCC, I guess. Luckily for us, you didn't forget. We should be able to make good progress using your save.

[Elephant]

I've had greater success with MarcoPolo as my first wonder. Getting relations started earlier permits alliances before the AI bump into each other and form antagonisms, plus it lets me pick and choose from AI techs. The AI rarely starts building Colossus, and if they do gifting them Masonry usually gets them to switch. Literacy is even better.

My usual tech path is Mon-Tra-Phi/Rep (last two depend on techs from huts and trades). I usually go for Cst right after the last pair, and often get it in trade from an AI by then. I sometimes sandwich Map right after Tra as an off-tech; definitely grab it first if I've just finished Marco Polo.

The three improvements we need soon are Library, Temple and Market. Library is almost done; we can then start Temple and consider a switch to Market if that looks like it will do better. I doubt Rep will be along by then, which is when Market really helps out.

[solo]

Originally posted by Elephant
I've had greater success with MarcoPolo as my first wonder. Getting relations started earlier permits alliances before the AI bump into each other and form antagonisms, plus it lets me pick and choose from AI techs. The AI rarely starts building Colossus, and if they do gifting them Masonry usually gets them to switch. Literacy is even better.

I think you are the one who convinced us that Marco Polo first in EL games was also the best way to go.

While improvements have been made to OCC strategy since the Paulicy first appeared, most of its ideas have stood the test of time.

[solo]

I’ve continued from Elephant’s save:

2000 hut – Mysticism, hut – Horseback Riding. Remainder of library is rushed since there is enough cash on hand. Two off path techs from the huts will slow down progress to Trade and will probably eliminate my chances of producing the best save by 1000 BC, but Mysticism did provide the Oracle wonder for accumulating shields towards MPE.

1950 Library, beakers now total 25, hut – Legion (NON), which means some AI lurk nearby
1850 Bronze Working, switch to Currency
1700 Mongols – peace, give tech, no alliance, and I will not trade techs since they offer Warrior Code with the other unknown tech probably being Masonry.
Germans – Trade for Mathematics (they also have Masonry, but I hold off on that), peace, alliance, no gift.

1600 Mongols expel my diplomat
1550 hut – Polytheism, now I will really be last to Trade, I think, but huts must be tipped since odds always favor a beneficial outcome.

1400 Currency. Trade not available, so Masonry is chosen next which I get immediately from the Germans. I also accept their offer of an alliance. No gift, though.

1350 Finally able to start researching Trade.
1250 size 5, luxuries adjusted upwards a bit.
1000 Trade will be discovered in two turns and MPE will come a few turns afterwards. Cardiff is size 5, produces 24 beakers, and advances are coming at a rate of every 10 turns now.

I may be last to Trade but am the first again to post a result!

[solo]

Since I was curious in making a comparison, and because I have plenty of time left, I decided to continue this game from my own save, too. I offer a brief log of what happened to my tiny Republic:

1500 Republic discovered, revolution
1450 switch in governments made, luxuries must be set at 40% to maintain happiness.
1250 size 4
1150 Currency. Now I’m noticing that the Colossus will be done before Trade is discovered, so I switch wonders to the Great Library. This will waste some shields, but I want MPE immediately when Trade is discovered.

1000 Trade and MPE are 4 turns away. Cardiff is producing 15 beakers, but advances are only taking 7 turns, since carrying costs are low.

There may be something to be said for not exploring and not tipping huts, as I have done in this game so far. Doing this avoids unwanted techs and leaves extra chances for the AI to tip more techs, gold and cities. More AI hut tipping opportunities will help improve the chances of getting more of value out of MPE when it is built.

[Peaster]

I had a false start, with the first hut giving up BW (good!!) but the second one making a city. I replayed the turn about 30 times, but couldn't get BW again. So..

2000BC: Hut 1 = Mapmaking (this seemed almost as good as BW to me). Hut 2 = Warrior Code.
1850BC: Library -> temple... BW -> Curr.
1750BC: Germans: I got Math + Masonry, and got them up to cordial, but couldn't get their maps.
1650BC: Temple done... now what? Marketplace is not an option, so I started Colossus.
1450BC: Curr -> Lit. Mongols: no interest in my tech. Hut = 2 barb horses. I bribe one for 41g and let the other go meet the Germans.
1250BC: Cardiff is size 5 and stops celebration. I get the most arrows from a 70% science rate, so I set lux to 0 and tax to 30%. The new worker gets an irr/river square, but the city only makes 9 shields/t. I decide against a scientist to keep food coming in. Our settler will start making a forest on the northern rivered plains.
1050BC: Lit -> Trade.
1000BC: We have 102 shields towards a WoW.

[rjmatsleepers]

I'm not very happy with my set of turns. I decided to wait until I could build caravans before going for a wonder. Then I got Literacy from a hut which meant that I had to research another technology before Trade. I choose The Republic and I've changed government. I'm at war, but once the gold goes below 50 I'm fairly confident that the Mongols will give us peace for technology. Anyway, here is my log.

2000 BC here go the huts. 50g and Literacy - not bad.
1950 BC barb archer disapears
1850 BC Cardiff completes library and switches to Temple. BW->Currency
1800 BC Barb archer re-appears
1750 BC hut gives me a hord of barbarians - well one horseman
1700 Chinese start great library
1600 BC Currency->The Republic. Complete temple, start market place.
1550 BC hut gives me 100 g
1500 BC discover Leipzig. Give literacy for peace treaty.
1450 BC discover Berlin
1400 BC The Mongols find one of our diplomats and demand 100 which I refuse. They declare war. I can't afford to bribe their archer, so I start exeditious retreat.
1350 BC The Republic->Trade.
1300 BC rush market place and revolt
1250 BC Republic started, but I can't celebrate
1200 BC Pesky barb archer re-appears very close to Cardiff.
1100 BC Germans expel diplomat which enables me to deal with barb archer bribe archer for 69 and fortify him on hill. Hopefully I'll get the money back from the barb leader.
1050 BC Barb archer moves away, so no ransom. Gold is looking a bit low now (56) - well at least I should be able to get peace with the Mongols without paying tribute
1000 BC Trade->Map making. Switch Cardiff to caravan and disband 1 warrior

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster
I had a false start, with the first hut giving up BW (good!!) but the second one making a city. I replayed the turn about 30 times, but couldn't get BW again. So..

At risk of teaching grandmother ...

The approach in EL games is to save just before popping the hut so that you can reload from the same point if the result is not legal.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Grigor]

I was very lucky with huts this turnset. As a result, I turned science down for many turns in order to rush gold for caravan rushbuys. I don't know if that was the best strategy, but here is how it turned out:

2000 Hut: 50g. Hut: Bronze. Better luck this turnset Buy Library.
1950 res Curr
1850 Curr=>Trade. Hut: Trade!
1800 Res Literacy.
1750 Road discovered from a rival.
1700* Germans: peace. Trade for Mathematics (they have Masonry too) Leipzig found
1650 Barb immolates on now vet warrior. Chinese begin GL.
1600 MP in Cardiff. Berlin found
1450 Cardiff size 5, still in Celebration. Science down - production at 10 shields/turn
1400 Dye Caravan (for Leipzig)
1300*Germans expel Dip.
1100* Lit=>Maps
1000 Hut: 50g

And: the save... Remember, this has to be MGE.