OCC 2005 Game 1

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Elephant
I anticipated the Hides being a short-term phenomena, so I tried to make one every turn I could until they ran out. They actually lasted longer than I expected, so I turned six of them into Copernicus and saved the rest. I need a ship to deliver them, but I was rushing food vans to prep for Newtons while researching ToG (which came before I was ready) so I delayed making the ship. Now I'm researching Nav while finishing the food vans, so I thought I'd wait till I could build a Caravel rather than a Trireme. I'm from New Jersey, where a better ship is always worth waiting for... as long as it goes somewhere besides New Jersey...

Interesting ... we keep coming back to the sort of questions that crop up in Peaster's Theory Contest. In this case, by delivering to a different continent we will roughly double the pay-off, but the pay-off will come later and we will need to pay the cost of building and keeping the caravel (or whatever). Question for the jury: which approach has the greatest benefit? (I confess that I "take the cash and let the credit go" - ie I deliver as soon as I can rather than wait for a possible larger pay-out later.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

Another factor in favor for "deliver now", is that commodities must be delivered or used in order to unblock a new set of supplies. Sitting on commodity caravans (except for hides) will freeze supplies at least until the next city cycle turn when lists are updated automatically.

However, I still prefer to trade overseas if the payoffs are high enough. Any time you can get over 400 gold (very often), it's like getting two caravans worth for the price of one. For 600 gold, it's like 3 for 1, etc. If the delay is not that long, then the higher payoffs more than make up for waiting, since they yield more gold for building (and rushing) things and more beakers for quicker tech acquisition. A snowballing effect can be created and sustained.

Also consider that travel by sea is always at the maximum rate. Caravans can be dreadfully slow when moving over land on the same continent, not to mention the coy little AI blocking moves or their sudden demands when a caravan becomes vulnerable.

[Elephant]

Have we had enough discussion to start the next cycle, from AD500 to AD1000? Pick the save you want to start from and proceed. Post by Wednesday (or Friday, Grigor?) and we'll discuss till next Sunday?

[Grigor]

Are we going to pick any save or should we all pick the same one?

[Elephant]

Pick the one you like. Solo's been working his save; I may move over to try it out.

[Peaster]

I decided to play on from my own 500AD save, just for the sake of continuity. I don't have much feel for OCC yet, so I reverted to Paul's guide, and built ...

Spoiler:

... Cope's + INC + 1 engineer. A supermarket was also on the agenda, but I didn't quite get to refrigeration. I was getting a tech every 2 turns towards the end, but the AI were too slow at research to help. I delivered about 4-5 vans, mostly out-of-demand hides, for an average bonus of about 140g. I am baffled when people talk about 400g payoffs. Takes practice, I guess.

Several times I asked the AI for a gift, and they gave me a bad tech, even though they had 100-200 gold. I wonder if that behavior is predictable.

Another dilemna at the end was - I had 2 settlers and an engineer with nothing useful to do until refrigeration (coming approx 1040AD). They could have started making a forest, but Paul seems to imply farmland is worth more at this stage.

I lost a NON-horse and a NON-Archer attacking a barbarian super-legion on grass. Just bad luck, probably. I always thought barbs were wimps on defense.

I have had 3 dips sitting around in Cardiff for about 1500 years. What are they for? They don't seem useful for exploring (at least on this map). I have used one for bribes, but why build three?

[rjmatsleepers]

I've downloaded Peaster's AD 1000 save. I hope to complete the next 500 years from my save today and then post it tomorrow.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

Onwards with the log to 1000 AD:

520 food, Combustion, gold(d) to Tlatelolco, 738g
540 oil, Atomic Theory, gems(d) to Teotihuacan, 756g
Mongols – give tech, share maps

Not a bad start with freights!

560 beads, Electricity
580 food
600 food, Electronics
620 Hydro Plant
640 food, Steel, Aztecs – give tech, trade maps
oil to Teotihuacan, 272g
Chinese – give tech, trade maps

Oil is not in demand yet, but the delivery above makes Teotihuacan start demanding beads. Usually it’s better to deliver quickly and work to re-establish another supply than to wait until a demand shows up, especially when it saves a turn learning a tech.

660 food, Automobile
680 Superhighways, Mass Production
Beads(d) to Teotihuacan, 884g (making the undemanded oil worthwhile!)
Germans – will not trade for Feudalism (building Sun Tzu’s), 100g gift

Now I will have to trade for many non-vital techs so carefully avoided earlier in the game. This will add two turns onto the length of the game and foul up my tech sequencing plans.

Aztecs – trade for Horseback Riding, Monarchy and Warrior Code
Babylonians – trade for Conscription, 150g

700 Mass Transit, Nuclear Fission

Must not let pollution interfere with progress.

720 Darwin’s Voyage, Feudalism, Refrigeration

I will not need Refrigeration, but Tactics was not available this turn. The refusal of the Germans to trade Feudalism inspires me to never again delay trading for wonder techs before AI minds become too busy. Darwin’s must be built now to use wonder bread again to refresh commodity supplies.

740 oil, Chivalry
760 beads
780 engineers, Leadership
800 engineers, Greeks & Germans – give tech, share maps

A few plains and grasslands will have to be converted to forests in order to get to 80 shields/turn to build SS Structurals.

820 food, Tactics, beads to Tenochtitlan, 573g
840 food, Machine Tools, oil to Tlatelclo, 579g

Finding or trying to create demand is no longer necessary, since there will be more than enough gold around to build a spaceship. It’s better to maximize the number of deliveries to this distant island.

860 Mobile Warfare
880 beads
900 food, Miniaturization
920 Offshore Platform
940 food, Computers, Greeks & Aztecs – give tech, share maps
960 Research Lab
980 food, Nuclear Power, dye(d) to Tlatelclo, 1080g, barb dragoon bribed, 102g
1000 food, Robotics, beads to Tlatelclo, 519g

Freights have been as lucrative now as caravans were earlier in the game. A spaceship will probably be launched in the mid 1500’s if things continue at this pace.

[rjmatsleepers]

Reading one of Solo's logs is like watching Tiger Woods play golf. It is magnificent, but so far beyond what I can do that I find it difficult to believe we are playing the same game.

Great stuff, Solo. Meanwhile I will plod on with my version of the game

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Here is my log to AD 1000

AD 520 ToG-> chemistry.
AD 540 hides(u)-Leipzig 118. give physics to germans
AD 560 build final van for Cope's
AD 580 build Copes. Chemistry->steam engine. begin celebration. hides(u)-Leipzig 118.
AD 600
AD 620 Steam engine->magnetism. give steam engine to Germans and Greeks
AD 640 Finally kill barb archer
AD 660
AD 680 magnetism -> gunpowder. swap with Chinese for gunpowder. give gunpowder to Babs
AD 700 start researching metallurgy. give navigation to babs
AD 720
AD 740 Metallury-> explosives. give metallurgy to Germans and mongols
AD 760 give metallurgy to babs and magnetism to Mongols
AD 780
AD 800 explosives->electricity
AD 820 gold(u)-Leipzig 125
AD 840
AD 860 electricity->atomic theory
AD 880
AD 900 complete last van for Ike's
AD 920 build Ike's atomicy theory->conscription. swap with germans for conscription and give it to babs
AD 940 begin researching railroad. swap with mongols for railroad. and give it to babs, chinese and germans
AD 960 start researching industrialisation
AD 980 Industrialisation->the corporation. give industrialisation to everyone except aztecs
AD 1000 give democracy to aztecs, conscription to chinese and electricity to Mongols

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster
I decided to play on from my own 500AD save, just for the sake of continuity. I don't have much feel for OCC yet, so I reverted to Paul's guide, and built ...

Spoiler:

... Cope's + INC + 1 engineer. A supermarket was also on the agenda, but I didn't quite get to refrigeration. I was getting a tech every 2 turns towards the end, but the AI were too slow at research to help. I delivered about 4-5 vans, mostly out-of-demand hides, for an average bonus of about 140g. I am baffled when people talk about 400g payoffs. Takes practice, I guess.

Several times I asked the AI for a gift, and they gave me a bad tech, even though they had 100-200 gold. I wonder if that behavior is predictable.

Another dilemna at the end was - I had 2 settlers and an engineer with nothing useful to do until refrigeration (coming approx 1040AD). They could have started making a forest, but Paul seems to imply farmland is worth more at this stage.

I lost a NON-horse and a NON-Archer attacking a barbarian super-legion on grass. Just bad luck, probably. I always thought barbs were wimps on defense.

I have had 3 dips sitting around in Cardiff for about 1500 years. What are they for? They don't seem useful for exploring (at least on this map). I have used one for bribes, but why build three?

Spoiler:

I had similar experience (except that I haven't built an engineer yet, and I wasn't planning on building a supermarket). The larger van pay-offs come from delivering to a different continent, delivering to a destination with more trade arrows and delivering demanded goods. At least that's the theory - my pay-offs were even lower than yours The other problem I have is that I can't free up supply.

I believe that in theory the AI should not give you a tech when they have more than 50 gold. Do you still have a save that you can post where you got a tech despite them having more gold?

I lost my non-archer as well; managed to keep my non horse though. As you say, just the luck of the draw.

I'm not sure about the diplos. It might be worth disbanding one or 2 for the shields. However I kept them. They don't cost support and may be useful to have in case something unexpected happens.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Elephant]

I have a business trip tomorrow and another next week that I have been spending too much time preparing. I am probably unable to post anything for the next week. I will try to continue my mediocre AD500 save but suggest you not wait for me on Sunday.

[Grigor]

I have played from Elephant's save until 1000AD.

The caravans were helpful in getting two 1-turn advances, but I am not up to Solo's excellent trade work. Steel in 3 turns. Enough gold to build freights each turn. An oil freight to be delivered in the next 10 turns. Celebrating for a few turns to get up to full speed.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Grigor
I have played from Elephant's save until 1000AD.

The caravans were helpful in getting two 1-turn advances, but I am not up to Solo's excellent trade work. Steel in 3 turns. Enough gold to build freights each turn. An oil freight to be delivered in the next 10 turns. Celebrating for a few turns to get up to full speed.

A good turnset, Grigor, but I am puzzled by one thing. You have built railroads on some city tiles where (AFAIK) they give no benefit and left some tiles without roads where they would have given extra trade arrows. Am I missing something?

I think your position is the best of the three posted, but the differences don't seem to me to be overwhelming. I'm inclined to play on with my position for another set of turns.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Grigor]

I was just roading randomly, like the AI, figuring that eventually it would all be done.