OCC 2005 Game 1

[Peaster]

RJM - I think Ele was responding to my question, rather than criticizing our posts [but I could be wrong]. In the past two better ball games, people were much less careful about spoiler info than you and I have been.

Here is SG's explanation. His slash went the wrong way, so I have corrected that and it seems to work.

(spoiler)
text
(/spoiler)
but with square brackets of course.


My attempt:

Spoiler:

This is a big secret

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster

Here is SG's explanation. It didn't seem to work for me, but maybe I did something stupid.

(spoiler)
text
(\spoiler)
but with square brackets of course.


My attempt:
[spoiler]
This is a big secret
[\spoiler]

The following seems to work reasonably well. Insert your spoiler text in a different colour - selected from the list - then change the colour to #F8F8F8. For example:

This was red but I changed it

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Well, I've learned something

This exercise has helped me with my EL technique. I replayed a previous EL comparison game using the Elephant / Grigor technique of maximising revenue after discovering trade and achieved my earliest landing yet (1555). OK so this idea has probably been mentioned before, but I didn't notice it.

I hope there's more to come.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

I have continued from my early Republic game, which should make for an interesting comparison with Monarchy games at the 1 AD checkpoint. Here is the log:

900 Trade. (Finally! Now it’s time to make some hay!)
875 Marco Polo’s Embassy.

Techs that the AI have that I lack are:

Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Masonry, Monarchy, Pottery, Warrior Code, Construction, Polytheism, The Wheel, and Mysticism.

All were expected with the possible exception of Construction, which I considered a bonus. An analysis of the AI tech lists suggests some immediate trades and gifts will be needed to help steer their research. I also want maps to see if any AI are close enough for profitable overseas trade routes. I knew the original starting position would produce a strong supply of hides and wanted to take advantage of this fact before trying to grow my city much further. (Hides supply diminishes rapidly with city growth). Each of the AI will get Republic and prerequisites for other techs I hope they are able to learn on my behalf. I want to avoid all non vital techs, and consider Monarchy and even Ceremonial Burial to be on this list. For the next wonder I plan on Shakespeare’s Theater, to get Cardiff growing in order to boost caravan delivery payoffs. I will research the techs the AI fail to pick, using trades to pay for them and set taxes high as possible for more gold.

Germans – trade for Map Making, give tech, peace, alliance, trade maps, 150g gift
Greeks – give tech, peace, alliance, trade maps, no gift
Chinese – give tech, peace, alliance, trade for Mysticism and The Wheel, 50g gift
Babylonians – trade for Construction, peace, alliance, trade maps, 50g gift

My small size and low power rating allows many alliances and 200 gold in initial gifts. Once an alliance is formed, one must wait another 8 turns before being able to ask for additional gifts.

850 I was learning Map Making, but having traded for that, I switch research to Philosophy. Trireme produced to conduct trade with the Chinese and Greeks, who are on nearby continents.

Mongols – give tech, peace, alliance, trade maps, no gift

825 gems,

Aztecs – they demand gold, so I refuse and they declare war.

800 Aztecs – give a tech for peace, another for an alliance, trade maps, no gift. So much for the war!

Babylonians – give tech, share maps (they were learning a tech I already had)

775 hides
725 hides, gems(d) to Canton, 208g and the fun now begins
700 beads, Philosophy, Engineering, size 5
650 hides
625 hides(d) to Canton, 192g

These trade routes will also help boost Chinese research besides making me rich.

600 hides, Medicine
575 Germans – give tech, 75g gift
550 hides,

Chinese – give tech, trade for Iron Working, 25g gift
Germans – trade for Mathematics, 50g gift

525 Babylonians – give tech, 25g gift; Greeks – give tech
500 Diplomat, must interrupt caravan production since some barbs have appeared.

Chinese – trade for Bridge Building, 25g gift

475 Babylonians – 50g gift
450 dye, Babylonians – give tech
425 beads(d) to Ashur, 215g

Now Cardiff has 3 trade routes and I am about ready to start the city growing

400 hides, Sanitation

Germans – trade for Seafaring, 100g gift
Greeks – trade for Astronomy, 150g gift
hides(d) to Nineveh, 312g
Chinese – 50g gift

375 gems, Aztecs – trade for Banking, 100g gift
350 food, hides(d) to Shanghai, 232g
325 Shakepeare’s Theater, we love begins, University, size 6, hides(d) to Shanghai, 256g

I did not have to build a temple or a colosseum in this game.

300 size 7, barbs land too close for comfort, dye(d) to Shanghai, 368g

275 aqueduct, size 8, barb legion bribed, 82g. It is used to kill the other legion and its leader. They are too close to Cardiff to risk playing any games.

250 size 9, Chinese – give tech, share maps
225 gems, size 10, hides(d) to Shanghai, 368g

Germans – give tech, 50g gift

200 hides, size 11, Chinese – trade for Economics, 25g gift
175 size 12
150 sewer system, size 13, Theory of Gravity
125 gold, size 14, gems(d) to Canton, 537g
100 size 15
75 harbor, size 16
50 size 17, Chinese – give tech
25 university built, size 18, Chemistry
1 A.D. food, size 19, hides(d) to Canton, 504g

Growth just took off due to lucrative trade. The Colossus is next and will be rushed. I have all of the pre-Renaissance techs (or can trade for them) and am currently researching Invention (which I can trade for), but once that is learned the gravy train will stop, so research has been nerfed until trade revenues dry up.

I plan economic city improvements next, and then will add the scientific wonders, which should be in place by the time Cardiff is maximum size.

Hides has really made this city a powerful trader, and it is mainly for this reason that I chose to found here rather than wander to the site with better specials. It turns out that site also produces hides, but I did not know this at the beginning of the game.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo
I have continued from my early Republic game, which should make for an interesting comparison with Monarchy games at the 1 AD checkpoint.

I've downloaded the save - it looks very good on the basis of the log

Originally posted by solo
Once an alliance is formed, one must wait another 8 turns before being able to ask for additional gifts.

What's the status of this statement - established fact? - rule of thumb? - hypothesis? And is it wait 8 turns every time? (My recollection is that I've been able to get gifts more frequently than that, but I may be thinking of tribute.)

Anyway I will look at the save and post more comments tomorrow.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

What's the status of this statement - established fact? - rule of thumb? - hypothesis? And is it wait 8 turns every time? (My recollection is that I've been able to get gifts more frequently than that, but I may be thinking of tribute.)

RJM at Sleeper's

I ran a test on gift giving, and except for the turn the alliance is formed, no gifts will be given until after 8 turns. Tribute is different, since once you outnumber the AI on their continent, tribute can be demanded at any time and collected. There are two other requirements for receiving a gift of gold after the 8 turn waiting period:

1) Your power rating must be lower than that of the AI you are asking.

2) The AI must have more than 50 gold. If <50 gold, you will receive a tech.

Also keep in mind that the lower your own power rating, the more likely it is that the AI will form alliances, so it is best to establish them as soon as possible after contact has been made and before your own city grows that much.

[rjmatsleepers]

Solo, I've had a look at your save. A very good turnset. I was very impressed with the way you cherry-picked the technologies. I suspect that in the past I may have missed numerous opportunities to avoid masonary. The number of van deliveries you made or have on route is also very good.

The save got me thinking about a number of things.

A) City location. It's water under the bridge now, but I couldn't help noticing the extent to which a location with more trade specials and rivered tiles makes up for inexpert game play.

B) Market or no market. I was surprised you didn't build a market. Not having a market means the luxury level for celebration is higher. Perhaps you could tell us more about this decision.

C) Shakespear before Colossus. Building Shakespear's theatre early enabled you to get the WLTPD growth phase going early and reaching size 19 gives additional trade arrows. But not having Colossus costs trade arrows. The size 19 city seems to generate about half a dozen extra trade arrows compared with a size 12 city with Colossus. However, the fewer trade arrows per citizen (and the lack of market) means that the luxury level to celebrate is much higher. Hence tax (or beakers) suffer during the growth phase. For me that tips the balance in favour of building Colossus before Shakespear's theatre. However, perhaps the picture looks different if you are deriving most of your gold and beakers from van delivery.

I hope you are planning to play through to AD 1 with the other city location. That would be another interesting comparison.

Are we expecting contributions from Elephant and Grigor?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Grigor]

I had a disastrous early turnset and will not be submitting a save this week.

[solo]

RJM,

Normally Masonry is needed, since it is a prerequisite for Math and Construction, but the AI were able to learn these techs in time for me to skip Masonry.

You are right about a market, which I should have built earlier, perhaps a better choice than a university at 25 BC. That was a mistake on my part. However, I could afford 50% luxuries since I was getting so much gold from my early trades. Excellent income can result in some sloppy play.

With Shakepeare's first I did not need a temple or colosseum. With a good group of city tiles being sea tiles, quick city growth provided as many, or more, trade arrows than having the Colossus first, I think. To get to size 12 with the Colossus first, the city still must grow and would need more city improvements than I used. In any situation, though, I think establishing trade routes as soon as possible is the best way to boost a city's trade arrows.

I did not play on from the other turnset, because my result was not as good as Elephant's or Grigor's.

[Elephant]

I will be posting VERY late this evening - I hope...

[rjmatsleepers]

At the moment, I think that all the saves have something going for them. Of course Elephant's save may be overwhelmingly good. If Ellie's save is not outstanding, it seems to me that we may as well continue from whichever AD1 save we want to - that gives you a free reign Grigor, although if you choose to continue from your own position, I think you should post it.

How long do we play for?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

IMHO this kind of game is more fun with some agreed-upon rules - about deadlines, voting, choice of saves to use, spoiler info, etc. I consider my save and RJM's to be legal, and RJM's is far better, so I will start from his save.

RJM - How about 25 turns (500AD) in 5 days?

[Elephant]

I'm behind - I've made it to 500BC, with CARDIFF up to size 12, researching Sanitation. Go ahead with Peaster's suggestion - play to 500AD by Sunday, then we'll talk. If I can catch up I'll join you. I'm doubtful I can equal Solo's AD1 position - I've got six alliances, but not getting enough gold for the necessary infrastructure (I need a Bank and Sewers soon). I used a couple Hides caravans for a wonder rather than delivering them, but then my unblocked commodity changed to Coal. Perhaps I should have stayed small and milked things more before growing.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster
IMHO this kind of game is more fun with some agreed-upon rules - about deadlines, voting, choice of saves to use, spoiler info, etc. I consider my save and RJM's to be legal, and RJM's is far better, so I will start from his save.

RJM - How about 25 turns (500AD) in 5 days?

Play to AD 500 and post before Sunday is OK by me, but I'd like to encourage participation so if Elephant is planning to continue his current effort beyond 500 BC, I'm willing to wait for him. However, I am concerned that things might get a bit fragmented. I'm very comfortable with Solo continuing his effort and posting alternative saves at the agreed dates - it makes an interesting comparison. Grigor has implied he doesn't want to continue his own position - I hope he is willing to pick up one of the posted saves and continue. I'd like to keep all 5 of us in the game as long as possible - as well as encouraging any newcomers who are lurking to join in.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

I have continued my game up to 500 AD, and the log follows:

20 gems, size 20; dye(d) to Beijing, 540g
40 The Colossus, (wonder bread unblocks another commodity supply)
60 dye, size 21

Growth must stop until the switch is made to Democracy and when the trireme has finished delivering caravans.

80 Marketplace; Babylonians – trade for Democracy, trade maps
100 Bank; gold to Beijing, 420g
120 Stock Exchange; Germans – give tech, share maps, 100g;
gems(d) to Canton, 522g; revolution

Now after a nice run of commodity trades, only food is available.

140 food, government to Democracy; Aztecs – give tech, share maps
160 food
180 food
200 food, dye(d) to Shanghai, 560g

Babylonians – trade for Invention, trade maps
Chinese – trade for Navigation, trade maps
Aztecs – give tech, trade maps
Greeks - ditto

The final caravan is delivered, so it’s time to trade for Renaissance techs and race to Corporation and freights. I’ve got plenty of gold and will rush the two scientific wonders next. Using wonder bread for them will re-establish a few commodity supplies again.

220 Copernicus
240 food, we love resumes, Physics
260 Isaac Newton’s, size 22; Germans – 50g; Babylonians – 50g
280 Steam Engine, size 23
300 size 24
320 Railroad, size 25; Chinese – trade for Magnetism; Babylonians & Germans – 50g each
340 size 26
360 Industrialization, size 26; we love ends; Mongols – give tech, share maps

Now I have 822 beakers at 100% science, only 18 short of getting the next tech in one turn. If this site had had another trade special such as silk, I might have had a string of one turn advances at this point. As it was, I came very close.

Cities based on the other site that are able to establish a road and/or rail bonus to an AI city may have a better shot at doing this. We’ll wait and see if anyone is able to manage this.

380 Factory
400 The Corporation; transport; Babylonians – trade for Gunpowder, share maps
420 gems

Now its off and running again with some freight commodities.

440 gold, Refining
460 food
480 food, Explosives
500 Babylonians – trade for Metallurgy, 50g gift

Income from trade has allowed me to rush something every turn. Now we’ll wait and see how long this can be kept going using freights.