OCC 2005 Game 1

[Peaster]

Thanks, solo. I would like to pursue a few of these questions further, if you don't mind...

Originally posted by solo

2) A comparison will tell you if it [celebration] is good at a certain time.

Do you have a systematic way to compare the options?
(eg a value system, such as 1 arrow = 1 gold = etc ) ? Celebration seems wasteful in our 1000BC saves, but probably I'm missing something.

3) Beakers are needed early to get to key techs sooner. Once they are reached, gold is needed the most to start developing the city(s).

I guess we have not gotten our key techs yet, so beakers are tops for now?

If food and shields are less important, why not hire scientists (or taxmen) once the city reaches size 5? Why not Xin, for example?

4) Load the save, try and see.

I did, and I see that he can't do it because of 1-2 unhappy citizen(s). But why is he having happiness problems that we are not ? The only difference I see is that he is in a Republic. I assume that you guys know the happiness rules better than I do, and there is some simple explanation of this.

5) Depends on your situation. If you are delayed getting to Trade, like I was, there's nothing better to do than accumulate shields in a wonder. If you get Trade earlier, building caravans allows more flexibility.

OK - with vans you can go for an earlier trade route, or take a time out for a marketplace. But if I am reading this thread correctly, MPE is a higher priority. So, I assume the flexibility usually isn't TOO vital.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster


Q4) Why can't RJM celebrate his Republic?

I believe the problem is that the effective luxury goods (from the tax setting) are limited to a total of 2 times the number of citizens - in this case 10. With 5 citizens you can get the first 3 to blue - the first one takes 2 and the other 2 take 4. The temple gets the 4th citizen to content, but until I discover mysticism, there is nothing to get the 5th guy away from red. One red guy equals no celebration. If you use an entertainer, the first elvis is your first citizen (ie the guy who starts content. It now takes 8 luxury to get 2 guys blue which only leaves enough to make number 3 content. The temple turns number 4 content, but now you can't celebrate because you don't have enough blue guys.

Shakespear's theatre would solve the problem, but we are a long way from that. Also if we weren't playing deity, we'd get an extra content citizen and it would work.

Anyway, that's what I think is happening.

As far as continuation is concerned, so far, Solo and I have voted for continuing our own saves. Peaster has tentatively voted for Grigor. If we do decide not to choose a save that we all continue from, I don't see any reason why Peaster shouldn't continue from Grigor's save rather than his own. The important thing is to get 5 saves from AD 1 to compare.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster

Do you have a systematic way to compare the options?
(eg a value system, such as 1 arrow = 1 gold = etc ) ? Celebration seems wasteful in our 1000BC saves, but probably I'm missing something.

There have been a number of discussions of this question and quite a few theories have been put forward. There is no universal agreement - particularly when you try to value shields, food, etc. It gets even more complicated when you try to take account of time - would you rather have 10 arrows now or 15 next turn. But within a narrow range, 1 arrow = 1 gold works. But if you have a market, 2 arrows = 3 gold. And so on.

At this stage the crucial question is the comparison with beakers and shields. If you actually don't want to discover the technology you're researching (because you expect to swap for it shortly) gold is more valuable than beakers. As far as shields are concerned, roughly 2 gold = 1 shield (because of "rush" buying). Because of this (I suspect) Ele and Grigor normally use the rivered grassland rather than the forest. They add 9 shields per turn and buy the 10th. However on the turn that will complete the van, they need 10 shields. Coincidentally, each has saved just before or just after completing a van and so in their saves, the forest is being worked rather than the rivered grassland.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

Thanks, RJM. It is VERY late here, so I am going to read this over again tomorrow. I got so interested in OCC tonight that I started playing from my own 1000BC save. I guess I'll change my vote to your proposal, so that it wins, and hopefully I am not a criminal.

[Peaster]

SPOILER INFO AHEAD

This was the first turnset that I wasn't just following Paul's recipe, and the first time OCC really seemed fun. It helped to read over this thread a bit more carefully and to set a clear goal:

Goal: to reach size 12 ASAP. I need 3 techs, which will take 30 turns, without AI help. I need to finish a Wonder + 3 improvements, for a total of 470s, taking about 47 turns. Since I am short on shields, I will not try for early trade routes. With rushing and tricks, I hope to grow within 30 turns.

1000BC: I'll focus mainly on shields and gold. However, M.P.E seems better than Colossus, so I need to get Trade before Cardiff finishes Colossus. So, temporarily, I need beakers. I will replace one worker with a scientist, and will not celebrate. The food box is irrelevant.

775BC: Trade -> Cst, and switch production from Col to MPE. The scientist becomes a tax man.

750BC: Germans = allies and I get 200g [THAT never happens in EC games!] Also, a hut = 50g.

725BC: Finally, the forest on the river is complete.

700BC: M.P.E: I switch prod'n to mp/colo/aque, planning a sequence of IRB's to minimize costs. Now shields are king. I quickly ally with the Babs, pay 50g to the Aztecs, to get peace and Cst from them, and collect 3 maps. Now I can switch to Rep, and will get Mys + Seaf from the AI soon. Clearly, M.P.E is worth 200s.

The Greeks and Mongols are at war, and Greece is winning. This seems OK, since restarts are on, and the nearby Mongols are a potential problem for us.

575BC: Market. My dip bumps into some Mongols, who demand 150g. I decline, and they slay my dip. That dip had no clear business over there anyway. My science report indicates Republic in about 2 turns, but it is wrong - apparently that bar graph cannot be trusted. I used Civ2Beakers for a later turn, but it seemed off, too.

475BC: Colosseum -> Aqueduct.
450BC: Finally, Rep -> Mys (AI's have this). Revolution, and a turn of anarchy.
425BC: Republic! Lux = 30 and Tax = 0. I trade tech for Mys and Seaf (I expect to build a harbor, but this tech probably should be delayed). Bab alliance pays 200g.
375BC: Happy Civs = Ge/Ba/Az/Mo/Ce. Switch to Astro (Phil is not an option). I am not too familiar with WLTCD - it is rather fun!

350BC: Greeks ask for too much and declare war. I guess I should avoid AI contact when gold > 50.

325BC: Size 8, and finish the aqueduct. Switch to vans for the next WoW. Lux =40. Not sure what to do about the barb Archer/Leader combo to the NW. I decide to kill them on grass with my horse, before they get onto the mined wine tile [I have no phalanx, etc, for defense].

300BC: German Pyramids.
250BC: Babs get banks, but I will wait.

225BC: Size 12, Lux = 20. I am not sure if I can sell my colosseum or disband any warriors yet. I have a NON-horse, but can't rely on it as a militia unit. With my gold down to 45, I make peace with the M's and Gr's soon and get the Greek map.

150BC: Astro -> Phil. Both Babs and Gers have been at Phil a while, so I try to tech-bomb them a little to slow them down.
125BC: Az's get Eng. I am using 4 scientists and no taxes to get 57 beakers/t.
50BC: Babs get Phil first, but luckily they choose Medicine next! So, I will get that and Phil from them, and Eng from the Az's.

1AD: Next turn, we will get the 6th van, for either Cope's or Shake's. The Science report is blank, but we should get a tech to replace Phil [eg Sani] - about halfway done. Gold is quite low from rush buys. If we build Shake's, we should sell the colosseum and disband a warrior or two. The Settler has 1 charge.

This set was fun, and I hope playing so early doesn't cause problems. If Elephant or Grigor objects to RJM's proposal, I will withdraw this save.

[Elephant]

Finally got back online after "visiting the parents" and leaving the vital laptop behind. Looks like you guys are doing OK. Play your save or one you like better, to AD1. We'll see who's done Wednesday night and go from there.

[rjmatsleepers]

I followed the approach used by Grigor and Elephant - ie switching to maximum tax - and it seemed to work well.

975 BC Move my diplos to explore.
950 BC Continue
925 BC Rush van. Peace and alliance with Mongols. Discover Konigsberg
900 BC disband warrior to start van and buy some shields.
875 BC buy a few more shields
850 BC build road towards Konigsberg
825 BC disband last warrior and part rush van
800 BC kill barb archer
775 BC Dye (D) to Konnigsberg for 88
750 BC rush 4th van for MPE
725 BC Complete MPE
700 BC get map making from Mongols. Get mysticism from Chinese, alliance, 100 gold. Start researching philosophy
675 BC Alliance with Babs, 150 gold
650 BC Alliance with Germans - no gold. Alliance with Aztecs - no gold.
625 BC 25 gold from Mongols.
600 BC Diplos get expelled
575 BC Philosophy->medicine->horseback riding. Get horseback riding from Aztecs. beads (D) to Konnigsberg 112
550 BC rush van
525 BC get banking from Germans
500 BC 25 gold from Chinese
475 BC construction from Babylonians; seafaring from Chinese.
450 BC 100 from Germans
425 BC Start aqueduct
400 BC 50 from Germans
375 BC 50 from Aztecs. Rush final van for Collosus
350 BC Complete Collosus, but notice that Leipzig no longer demands hides 25 from Babylonians
325 BC Astronomy and 25 from Germans. 75 from Aztecs. 25 from Chinese
300 BC Hides (u) to Hamburg 108
275 BC Engineering->sanitation
250 BC 100 from germans. 50 from Aztecs
225 BC Pottery from germans. 50 from Aztecs. 50 from Chinese
200 BC diplo expelled by greeks
175 BC 50 from Aztecs
150 BC 50 from Babs
125 BC 50 from Babs
100 BC complete Shakespear's theatre
75 BC start building a collusium (to switch to sewer system)
50 BC 50 from Germans
25 BC Sanitation->Bridge Building. 25 from germans. 50 from Chinese

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster

This was the first turnset that I wasn't just following Paul's recipe, and the first time OCC really seemed fun.

That's good. I've downloaded the save and will look at it, but won't post any comments until later in the week.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Elephant]

Modification to deadline: I've got taxes to organize this week, which will eat into evening Civ time. How does play till Sunday, discuss till Tuesday sound?

[Grigor]

Better for me.

Thanks.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Elephant
Modification to deadline: I've got taxes to organize this week, which will eat into evening Civ time. How does play till Sunday, discuss till Tuesday sound?

That's fine with me ... but can I ask Peaster a question about his save - I don't think it will be a spoiler for anyone else.

Why do you have 2 trade caravans sitting in Cardiff? Are they on hold because you expect a better pay-off later? Are you planning to use them for a wonder?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

Sunday is OK with me.

RJM - I'm a little confused by your question. In my 1ad save, I have 5 vans in Cardiff, with a 6th coming next turn. I am planning to build Cope's or Shake's.

I am impressed by your 1ad save, which is clearly better than mine. So, I have replayed your moves from 1000BC to 375BC (when my PC crashed). Now I see that your 1000BC save - with Republic, a market, and Trade - is great for gold.

I guess I won't say more yet either, though I'd rather talk now before I forget things. We can label our posts as spoiler material, and people who haven't posted yet should wait to read them. Does that sound OK?

[Elephant]

You guys could try the "hidden text" trick - I can buzz over the numbered logs easily, but that kind of discussion should really wait or be harder to notice.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Elephant
You guys could try the "hidden text" trick - I can buzz over the numbered logs easily, but that kind of discussion should really wait or be harder to notice.

Sorry - I didn't think there was anything in the discussion that would be a spoiler for anyone else, but I'll try to keep to the rules in future.

RJM at Sleepers

[rjmatsleepers]

Possible Spoiler

Originally posted by Peaster
RJM - I'm a little confused by your question. In my 1ad save, I have 5 vans in Cardiff, with a 6th coming next turn. I am planning to build Cope's or Shake's.

Possible spoiler text below.

I was distinguishing between the food caravans and those which are goods. I thought that the non-food vans might be intended for delivery to another city. Actualy I realise now you said what you intended to do in your log, so mine was a silly question. I suppose what threw me is that my second wonder is usually colossus and you already have enough vans for that. I'd better not make any further comments.

RJM at Sleeper's