Caesar Succession Game: 2.42 team SPOILER

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Elephant
Jeepers, I thought this is a Conquest game...
.

It is !
but a tech lead and a war treasury can happen to be the right path to winning early (remember SlowThinker's victory in the "Holydays" tournament).

I fully agree that Navigation is (will be) very nice to have, but IMO it's a question of timing: without Nav we can research 1 tech/turn and acquire more than 200g/turn during quite a few turns. We are sure to be able to acquire Navigation from the English when we really need it, 12 or 15 turns later (buy it or swap it or steal it...).

[Elephant]

Looking at LF's save, 5 of the Settlers being built will have finished before we get Trade, with a possible 6th (Trade is 4-5 turns away). Two Settlers were just finished as well, so we could have 15 cities or 10-12 cities with some roads and irrigation. With Trade we will have access to 3 Wonders: Colossus, Lighthouse, and MarcoPolo. We know where the Mongols, Zulus and Vikings are from my run (I assume the Vikings were not wiped out by the Mongols in your save). We could do a quick set of caravan trades for gold and tech, grab some extra techs and maps from MarcoPolo, and switch right over to PT and a war footing by 1500BC. Next options for techs are Mas, Mys, Pot, PT, War, Whe, Wri. I think we need Writing soon for Diplomats, but what about Pottery for HG? Did Egypt start working on it during your run? And did you sight any Mongol ships?

It would be nice if Bloody Monk were to check in and contribute an opinion as well...

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Elephant
We could do a quick set of caravan trades for gold and tech, grab some extra techs and maps from MarcoPolo, and switch right over to PT and a war footing by 1500BC.

I agree: this is exactly the way to go IMO
(though 1500BC is probably optimistic: I would rather guess 1200BC, since our first caravan could hardly be delivered to London before 1600BC).

Your questions:
1) I would choose PT first (not willing to build any pachyderm, but in order to be able to face any kind of nasty surprise such as a heavy Barb or sneak attack).
2) Writing is nice to have (especially for buying the third row of shields)
3) Marco and the Gardens : of course yes, if we manage to grab them both. The Lighthouse won't be much use + I suppose it is already obsolete (haven't you sighted a frigate?).

[Elephant]

Egyptians were building HG in my run; they may be the only ones with Pottery (I'm pretty sure English did not, despite having Seafaring). With HG, it's nice to have in your SSC but if we're not building one then let someone else build it and take it away - hopefully before the happiness issues get nasty.

I was a bit puzzled to see the star next to Lighthouse, till I saw that Mongol Galleon. Which brings up another thought: a small fleet of Frigates could do a lot of damage to AI coastal cities. Perhaps trade techs with the Mongols for Magnetism and skip Nav?

If we're going to spend some time shipping caravans to England for big delivery bonuses, we definitely need Writing for Diplomats. I'd go there first (you can always bribe Barbs), maybe Pottery second?, then PT.

[La Fayette]

1) HG and LH
I agree: if we don't build HG, we take it
No LH in this game: it will probably be wise to build Magellan.

2) Frigates
O yes! Anyone knows that ironclads are stronger, but why wait? Frigates do the job against any kind of defender pre-gunpowder.

3) Writing, PT and Pottery
Writing first is OK for me. No need to spend hours choosing the right order after that, since we should be able to get 1 tech/turn as soon as we start deliveries to London.

4) My mistake
BTW I notice that I wrote something wrong about trade multipliers: there is no "foreign" multiplier (there is an "internal trade" divider instead). This means that we should try to deliver DEMANDED commodities to London instead of undemanded goods, as I wrongly mentioned.

[Elephant]

So - deliver demanded caravans to London (expecting our first delivery will probably change the demand list anyway, so say we can get something like Silk/Wine/Silver/Cloth first, then Dye/Copper/Hides second), and save undemanded caravans for MarcoPolo. Build up the treasury, swap for maps, see if we can get Writing, PolyTheism and Magnetism via tech trades, and start building Frigates and Elephants. Sounds like a worthwhile plan.

Shall we try it with your 2000 save this week?

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Elephant
Dye/Copper/Hides second),
Shall we try it with your 2000 save this week?

Repeated Hides?: that would suit us

We must play before thursday.
Therefore I play today.

[Elephant]

OTOH, do we really need all those Settlers? If we turned them all to ships we'd have a pretty good chain. My run started getting into trouble with happiness after the 9th city.

[La Fayette]

Just played until 1000BC.

Situation at 1000BC:
We are allied with the English and the Mongols.
We are at war with the Zulus (and our high priority is to take Zimbabwe ASAP, because of the Gardens).
We have 2 frigates sailing towards Zimbabwe (2 more frigates next turn).
Magellan will be completed in Viroconium within 3 turns.
Our 4 frigates will be offshore Zimbabwe within 6 turns.

[Elephant]

Here is my rough log of 2000-1000BC using LF's 2000BC save:

researching Trade/108b at 18b/t=6t
next want Write, then Mag or PT?
build Marco ASAP
Pyramids lost?
Power Moderate, English Neutral, peace
why keep the NONE Warrior up north?

Ravenna FBF
Egypt changes from HG to Colossus
Settlers Pisae
1950bc: 108g,~20+19b,7t/126b INADEQUATE
...Pisae FBF
Settlers NEAPOLIS,ANTIUM
1900bc: 117g,60b,7t
...NEAP,POMP FBF
Settlers Hispalis
1850bc: 100g,80b,6t@21b
...Hispalis FBF
1800bc: 70g,100b,6t
Egyptians near Colossus
TRADE; start Writing
1750bc: 20g,0b,7t@23b/150b
...Hut(29,37): NOMADS

London(#1,size8)=Dye/Cop/Hides
Nott(#5,size5)=Dye/Wine/Hides
ANT,NEAP,Hisp,Viroc supply Hides; ALL 8 supply Dye; Hisp supplies Copper; no Wine supply

...shift 7.0.3 for RB gold: 22g, 17t@9b
...Recep Eng: 5Sp,gift Tra to Cordial, withdraw?OK,end
COLOSSUS IN THEBES! English abandon
ENGLISH START MARCO POLO!
Gibbon LARGEST: #2=English, #5=Romans
1700bc: 31g,9b,17t
1650bc: 37g,18b,17t
Dye in CUMAE
1600bc: 32g,27b,17t
Hides NEAPOLIS
1550bc: 28g,36b,17t
Dye Pisae, POMPEII
1500bc: 48g,45b,17t
Hides ANTIUM
1450bc: 42g,54b,17t
...drop camel,Enthus English(4Sp) offer alliance, decline
1400bc: 34g,63b,17t
...found LUGDUNUM on west coast(offshore Whale),start Warrior
...NEAPOLIS Hides to Nott(5/Cop/Wine/Hide): 96g/b,+1TR
Nott now Hide/Wine/Silver (POMPEII)
WRITING: start PolyTheism
Hides Hispalis
1350bc: 118g,10b,15t@11b/165b
...chg 3.0.7 7t@26b
...start MarcoPolo in Hispalis, 4x caravans
MARCO POLO IN HISPALIS! ENGLISH CHANGE TO MAGELLANS!
1300bc: 80g,38b,6t@28b
======================
MARCO POLO MANIPULATION
-----------------------
Uncoop Zulu: Mon,167g,7C(Leos),11T(5white),war Mongols
Neut Vikes: Desp,128g,1C,6T(2white),war Mongols
Icy Egypt: Mon,370g,5C,19T!!!(9white!),war Mongols
Icy Persia: Mon,32g,1C,8T(2white),no contacts
Enthus English: Mon,163g,6C(Magel),14T(5white),peace Romans
Icy Mongols: Mon,373g,6C,13T(6white),war Zulu,Vike,Egypt
-----------------------
Zulu have Inv,Iro,Mas,Pot,War; res Myst (war Mong)
Vike have Mag,Myst(NO MAP); res Pot (war Mong)
Egyp have Cst,Iro,Mas,Math,Myst,PT,Pot,War,Whe; res Lit (war Mong)
Pers have Cst,PT; res Bro (no contact)
Engl have Myst,Nav,Sea,War,Whe; res Feud (peace Rome)
Mong have Cst,Iron,Math,Myst,War,Whe; res Eng (war Zul,Vik,Egypt)
-----------------------
Romans want PT(Egypt,Pers),Mag(Vikes),Pot(Zulu,Egypt),Myst(Vik ,
Egypt,English,Mong), ALL MAPS
Rom got Alp/Bro/Cer/CoL/Cur/Hor/Map/Mon/Tra/Wri; res PT
-----------------------
...Icy Pers: 0Sp,dem Bro,gift Wri,Tra to Enthus,exch Cur for
POLYTHEISM,share maps,bye
(Persia northwest, cont#5, on Ocean, 1 Settler, no defender?)
...Neut Viks: 1Sp,exch Maps for MAGNETISM,Tra for MYSTICISM, dem
Mon for peace,Cordial;sh maps,bye
(Vikes midway west/east,cont#5,on Ocean,1 Settler,Mongol Horse)
...Uncoop Zulu: 5Sp,exch Myst for POTTERY,dem Hor for peace,Neut,
gift Write to Cordial,sh maps,bye
(Zulu south of Mong,cont#25,4 Settlers,Zimbabwe walled)
...Enth Eng: 4Sp,decline ally,dem Wri to Worsh,exch?busy Magel,
sh maps,bye
(English 3 islands SE, 1 Settler, loaded caravel eastward)
...Icy Egypt: 6Sp,dem 50g for peace,Neut; gift Mag to Recep,maps?
no,end
...Icy Mong: 3Sp,war Egypt?no,dem Mag?no,WAR
-----------------------
Got all maps but Egypt and Mong (know where Mong are, so Egypt
nearby), PT,Mag,Myst,Pott, lost 50g
=======================
...CUMAE Dye to London(8/Cop/Dye/Silk): 192g/b,+2TR
London now Silk/Copper/Hides (Hispalis)
...Vircon FBF
restart Literacy
1250bc: 138g,258b,10t@28b/270b
English-Vikings at war!
Hides Vircon
LITERACY; start Philosophy
Dye NEAP, Hides CUMAE
1200bc: 73g,28b,10t@31b/288b
...ANTIUM,Pisae FBF
Dye Pisae,Silver POMPEII
POP>300K
1150bc: 37g,59b,10t
...Ravenna FBF
Hides ANTIUM
1100bc: 19g,90b,8t@31b/240b MODERATE
...Cord Egypt: 6Sp,dem Lit(no),sh maps,bye
(Egypt NW of Mongols cont#5,2 Settlers,1 Elephant, Tri out)
...Enth Eng: 4Sp,dem Lit,sh maps,bye
(wounded Chariot SW of Trond; laden Caravel(Settler?) sailing)
Zulus dev Cst, chg Leos to HG! HG IN ZIMBABWE!!! (walled!)
Mongols dev Engineering
1050bc: 18g,121b,8t
...NEAP Dye to York(4/Dye/Cop/Hide): 96g/b,+1TR
York now Hide/Cop/Gem
...Pis Dye to Canter(4/Dye/Cop/Hide): 112g/b,+1TR
Canter now Hide/Silk/Silv
...LUGDUN FBF
...Enth Eng: 4Sp,won't exchange
Mongols start KingRich
Hides LUGDUN
PHILOSOPHY: freebie MONOTHEISM; start WarCode
Gems Ravenna
1000bc: 198g,21b,11t@33b/360b

I got MarcoPolo in 1300, missed getting HangingGardens by a hair, and got MonoTheism in 1000. I delivered 4 caravans, punted on alliance with the English, got Magnetism from the Vikings, and all maps but the Mongols (got most of theirs from the others, though). I'll take a look at yours next.

And the save:

[Elephant]

LF - looks like we followed very similar paths. I took Pottery to try for HG; you took Iron (perhaps HG was built by then?). After Phi-MT I chose WarCode (intending to swap for it from one of the others) to set up Feud for SunTzu; you chose Mas (which we can also swap for). You allied with the English and Mongols and p***ed off the Zulus; I declined several requests from the English for an alliance but p***ed off the Mongols. I see you have not gotten Nav yet; when I asked the English for a trade they refused saying "too busy with Magellans". So I left them to build it for me, focusing on Mikes and SunTzu instead.

You have two frigates done, but nothing to put on them yet. Now that we have MT we can build Crusaders - what say we rush a few and send them off? On the other hand, we can build Mikes and forget about the urgency of HG. According to Peaster, we should plan our expedition to the Egyptians first (they are the furthest - see my save) and prepare a second wave for the closer civs. Persia and Vikings should be simple; Zulus may be the next hardest to take out. Leave the English for our last wave (and milk the trade in the meantime).

One other thing I did was mine for the 4 hidden Silks. Might make my save worth considering, even if I'm a little behind in getting Frigates out.

[La Fayette]

I agree that we followed very similar paths (but it is not surprising since we discussed strategy before playing).

1) About frigates
You wrote:
"You have two frigates done, but nothing to put on them yet."
What is required onboard when attacking a coastal city with frigates is a warrior, no more. My plan is to have a warrior (or a horseman) onboard each of the 2 frigates to be completed next turn, which should allow us to take Zimbabwe (and the Gardens inside) about 6 turns from now, and also take Ulundi about 2 turns later.

2) About wonders
- IMO, if we take the HG, Mike is a waste.
- IMO, Sun Tzu is also a waste in this game since all capitals except Karakorum are coastal. We should avoid building barracks and hurry up taking Karakorum (before walls). After that, the choice between diplomats and crusaders will be a question of money (how many costly improvements for sale in the cities we are going to conquer).
- IMO, Magellan a high priority. The sooner we get it, the better. This means I would hate waiting for the English to build it. If they refuse to give Navigation, we say No to the alliance and crush them (5 coastal cities close to us should be a piece of cake for our mighty frigates). The HG will solve happiness problems in the meantime and the core of our civ will grow from 8-9 to 13-14 cities midsize.

3) About the other civs:
- Zulus:
I chose to be at war with the Zulus because I love their capital. Once we own Zimbabwe and Ulundi, we need 1 or 2 frigates in the south to take Hlobane and Mpondo (+ 3 inland cities to buy or conquer later on, according to the size of our treasury).
- Mongols:
I would like to stop the alliance, take Samarkand and Bokhara with our 4 frigates coming from Zimbabwe and send about 4 crusaders to Karakorum ASAP. That would leave us with 4 cities to conquer with our 4 crusaders, after a nice rest in Karakorum (perhaps even buy Nishapur, in order to have a coastal city close to Thebes very soon).
- Vikings and Persians
Each of them should be very easy to conquer by 1 or 2 frigates on their way to Egypt.
- Egypt
Almost any unit built on our main island after the 3-4 frigates required to conquer England should be sailing north towards Egypt at full speed (4 frigates offshore Thebes ASAP).
- Respawns
Restarts are on: this means a number of frigates all over the world in the endgame (perhaps about 25-30 turns ahead).

[Elephant]

A Warrior or Horse can take the city, but holding it may be another matter. Do I remember correctly that cities attacked by ships don't lose citizens?

SunTzu would help the Frigates become vets too, wouldn't it? I agree Magellans is top priority; it may be possible to steal the tech from our "allies" via Dips faster than we can conquer, and that might preserve friendly English slaves for our 3rd expeditionary force. The second one should be heading for Egypt ASAP.

BTW, cancel the alliances early so we don't get the "local forces returned home" problem.

No word from Monk or OldNSlow lately - I'm worried about Monk...

[La Fayette]

1) I grant you that a warrior is a minimum; but usually one or several frigates are wounded and must rest 2-3 turns in the city, thus protecting it while you build the strong defender.

2) Cities attacked by ships don't lose citizens: that's right.

3) Sun Tzu would help the frigates become vet: that's right.

4)"it may be possible to steal the tech from our "allies" via Dips faster than we can conquer": if we are lucky (the English have several "white" techs: when stealing with a diplomat we cannot choose, while we can choose when conquering the city).

5)"I'm worried about Monk...": so am I (I was about to send a private message yesterday, but finally decided to wait a few more days)

[Elephant]

So save the last "move" of the ship to enter the city after conquest. Haven't done that in a while... When Magnetism arrives I am usually fast-teching toward Democracy and Theory of Gravity to complete my SSC.

I had forgotten Dips cannot choose the tech stolen - my recent experience has been with Spies, stealing an off-path tech when I near SpaceFlight. But regarding techs, what is the plan behind researching Masonry - be able to build GW in case anyone starts it?

I had also forgotten to WLTKD before delivering caravans to English. Even so, I like the extra Silks and steps toward SunTzu of my save better than the Frigates in the water of yours. I'm coming around to your "take out the English" idea. Might be nice to sneak a Dip into London and see if they are close to Magellans - taking it away could save us the job of building it. Once we take down the English, though, we lose the quick delivery bonuses.