Troy

[Palaiologos]

Re: Well . . . .

Originally posted by Exile

The Greek mainland was not a hospitable place to live, even in the classical period and was not able to support a large population at any time. The only people who lived there were people forced to live there.

????????????

Greeks were forced to live in Greece? Its true we envied the rich lands of the barbarians and thus being more ADVANCED we took them.
But every Greek loved his land, man.

Dude i know i can not offer an objective opinion here but my guess is you are reading anti-Greek propaganda.
Nobody claims that ancient Greece was a paradise but its cultural accomplishments far surpass any you Yanks or contemporary civs for that matter produced.

It is still a mystery why the poor inhabitants of unhospitable and barren Greece occupied themselves with notions such as philosophy, a crude form of democracy, literature and most importantily pionereed the WRITTING OF HISTORY. No other nation had anything similar to show before. Just a half hearted attempt by the egyptians.

Of course there was bias. I mean out of the recorded 7 wonders of the ancient world 4(i think) were Greek.

But point is that if ancient Greek civilization wasn't, despite its flaws, the best mankind ever produced modern society wouldn't be based on it. The historical routes societies take are according to natural laws, not biased promotion.

I really hope the last one was clear enough.

They were forced to live there because they were hiding. They were pirates, preyed upon the Phoenician, Carian, Luvian, and Egpytian shipping, and hid out in the Aegean, which, at the time, was distant and relatively unknown. The edge of the world. The Greeks fought among themselves like rats in a basket, though their "wars" were little more than skirmishes even in terms of the period. I chalk much of the grandiosity of the Greek authors up to exaggeration-for-promotion's sake.

I take your point about piracy. So what? Being masterseamen we preyed upon weaker nations.


P.S i can't check it up right now but i think the Sea peoples were the Dorians.
It matters not anyway for classical Greeks were more Dorian than Ionian or Mycenean.

[DarkCloud]

Leonidas

Heck, look at the British and French Wars in the 18th Century - they both fought naval battles at sea, and sought rich lands in the New World. Should we call all British and French people pirates too?

They "LICENCED" Privateers and supported piracy. Therefore, they were pirates. They sunk unarmed merchant vessels and/or stole their cargo and their crews. That is piracy.

Palaiologos

Greeks were forced to live in Greece? Its true we envied the rich lands of the barbarians and thus being more ADVANCED we took them.
But every Greek loved his land, man.

Well... to add to Palaiologos' history here I would deign to remark that as far as I can remember the Ancient Greek people pushed the proto-Celtic peoples out of Greek territory and colonized the arable regions along the coast. Although most of greece was unarable and hostile, the Greeks built a civilization of City-states surrounded my mountains and harsh terrain and linked by boats that would periodically venture out into the mediterranean to set up colonies (such as rome).

It is still a mystery why the poor inhabitants of unhospitable and barren Greece occupied themselves with notions such as philosophy, a crude form of democracy, literature and most importantily pionereed the WRITTING OF HISTORY. No other nation had anything similar to show before. Just a half hearted attempt by the egyptians.

Well, you somewhat neglect the ancient chinese. Confucious and Mo Zi and Lao Tzu and other moral philosophers lived between 500 and 200 BC... and China, I believe, had a written history around that time... and with Qin Shihuangdi's beginning of the Qin Dynasty, the Exams system for scholars was instituted in China. Therefore, apparently... independently of each other the Greeks and Chinese developed advanced historical/philosophical foundations

[Mr. President]

Don't fall into the trap of debating, DarkCloud. You should use your 21st century sensibilities to show that Greek culture and by extension Western culture is worthless, violent, and misogynistic!

[fairline]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Well... to add to Palaiologos' history here I would deign to remark that as far as I can remember the Ancient Greek people pushed the proto-Celtic peoples out of Greek territory and colonized the arable regions along the coast.

Not sure what you're referring to by 'proto-Celts' Dark Cloud. I think the Celts arrived in the Balkans long after the Greeks were established; much later, the Celtic leader Brennos staged a devastating raid on Greece (in the 3rd Century IIRC).

Although most of greece was unarable and hostile, the Greeks built a civilization of City-states surrounded my mountains and harsh terrain and linked by boats that would periodically venture out into the mediterranean to set up colonies (such as rome).

I think Rome was founded by the Etruscans

[DarkCloud]

I think Rome was founded by the Etruscans

Many of the early Italian city-states were founded by wandering Greeks. Indeed, even Spanish-colonies were founded by Greeks.

And, if you remember the Aeneid- Aeneas was a greek and he "founded" rome

And, from my visits to rome- I do not think it was an etruscan city... although I do remember seeing etruscan ruins and vases- but I believe those were from the nearby city of VEII... which was most decidedly etruscan. Though you could be right. But regardless, the Greeks did found many Italic Colonies.
-
apologies, mayhaps I confused the Dorians supplanting the Myceanans (800~1100 BC) who supplanted the Illyrians/Minoans... and somehow believed the Illyrians were Celtic peoples.

[Gagliaudo]

Hey, guys, few words from me.

Roma's origins aren't so clear, however they were a mix of Etruscan-Latin-other Italics influences...
(BTW, in a history forum thread I read somebody who wrote first Roman kings were... Etruscan... Actually, first kings were alternate Latin/Sabin. Last three kings (3/7) were Etruscan).
Ehm... even giving credit to myths, Aeneas was Troian, not exactly Greek... . Greeks influenced Roma later.
No doubt, lots of South Italy important cities were founded by Greeks !
Bye you all !!!

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Leonidas

They "LICENCED" Privateers and supported piracy. Therefore, they were pirates. They sunk unarmed merchant vessels and/or stole their cargo and their crews. That is piracy.

Check any dictionary for a definition of "pirate".

The "Privateers" were pirates and engaged in "piracy".

A nation-state, when it seeks plunder, land, etc, engages in war.

To say that those nations who "licenced" privateers are also pirates, is like saying that those nations who hired mercenaries are also mercenaries.

Or that since Germany used the Waffen SS in WWII, means that ALL Germans are also Waffen SS. . .

Or that since most nations use spies, means that all nations are also made up of spies. . .

Well, I could go on and on, but I think you see what I mean

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Mr. President
You should use your 21st century sensibilities to show that Greek culture and by extension Western culture is worthless, violent, and misogynistic!

Since Brazil has had a strong western European tradition, and is thus part of western culture, then welcome to our "worthless, violent, and misogynistic!" home

[fairline]

Originally posted by Gagliaudo
Hey, guys, few words from me.

Roma's origins aren't so clear, however they were a mix of Etruscan-Latin-other Italics influences...
(BTW, in a history forum thread I read somebody who wrote first Roman kings were... Etruscan... Actually, first kings were alternate Latin/Sabin. Last three kings (3/7) were Etruscan).

Oops, my mistake I just remembered that the Romans booted out an Etruscan king (Tarquinus or some-such?)

As for DarkCloud's point about Greek colonisation, that certainly applied to Southern and South-Eastern Italy. The Bruttians were Greek weren't they?

[Gagliaudo]

Originally posted by fairline


Oops, my mistake I just remembered that the Romans booted out an Etruscan king (Tarquinus or some-such?)

As for DarkCloud's point about Greek colonisation, that certainly applied to Southern and South-Eastern Italy. The Bruttians were Greek weren't they?

Gareth, did you wrote on that forum? (perhaps under another nickname?... I'm a disaster to link different nicks to the same person: call for it to Eivind and so on )
However you're right about the fact Romans drove out their last king, the Etruscan Tarquinius (II) called "Superbe"... but Bruttii weren't Greeks, absolutely !!!
They were a native Italic tribe. Instead, Campanii (Capua & Co.)were quite a mix between Italics (Oscii) and Greeks.

[DarkCloud]

Leonidas-

Check any dictionary for a definition of "pirate".

The "Privateers" were pirates and engaged in "piracy".

A nation-state, when it seeks plunder, land, etc, engages in war.

To say that those nations who "licenced" privateers are also pirates, is like saying that those nations who hired mercenaries are also mercenaries.

Or that since Germany used the Waffen SS in WWII, means that ALL Germans are also Waffen SS. . .

Or that since most nations use spies, means that all nations are also made up of spies. . .

Well, I could go on and on, but I think you see what I mean

I see what you mean, and it is a good point. However, the argument I was making was that pirate=privateer...

I wasn't the one arguing that Greece was a pirate nation- however I will argue that Greece was a nation that supported piracy and smiled upon it as a legitimate occupation, much like England in the 17th century.

In addition, you would need to define 'war' in your aspect- because English privateers pirated enemies even when the nations were not officially 'at war' much like Greek privateers...

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Leonidas-


I see what you mean, and it is a good point. However, the argument I was making was that pirate=privateer...

I wasn't the one arguing that Greece was a pirate nation- however I will argue that Greece was a nation that supported piracy and smiled upon it as a legitimate occupation, much like England in the 17th century.

In addition, you would need to define 'war' in your aspect- because English privateers pirated enemies even when the nations were not officially 'at war' much like Greek privateers...

Hi

I understand your point of view.

However, there is a problem in your linking pirate=privateer. This is an easy mistake to make believe me - I made the same mistake

In all the definitions I have looked up, nowhere is "Pirate" and "Privateer" used together. They have totally different meanings.


Definitions:


PRIVATEER

By definition a privateer is either the ship, the crew, or the captain of a vessel licensed by a particular government during times of war to prey on enemy ships.

LEGAL DEFINITION of PRIVATEER:

PRIVATEER - A vessel owned by one or by a society of private individuals, armed and equipped at his or their expense, for the purpose of carrying on a maritime war by the authority of one of the belligerent parties.

For the purpose of encouraging the owners of private armed vessels, they are usually allowed to appropriate to themselves the property they capture, or at least a large proportion of it.



Definition of PIRATE

pirate - someone who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without having a commission from any sovereign nation.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Pi´rate

n. 1. A robber on the high seas; one who by open violence takes the property of another on the high seas; especially, one who makes it his business to cruise for robbery or plunder; a freebooter on the seas; also, one who steals in a harbor.

2. An armed ship or vessel which sails without a legal commission, for the purpose of plundering other vessels on the high seas.


As you can see from the above, a Privateer is someone who is LEGALLY commissioned by one nation for the purpose of harrassing a belligerent nation. This can be done during wartime or during peace.

This is a lot like large modern nations using smaller proxy nations to advance their purposes against other large nations. For example, the USSR supporting Cuba against the USA.

A Pirate, on the other hand, is a "Freebooter", WITHOUT a legal commission who robs on the high seas for his own purpose. This is a lot like us having bank robbers in our society.

So, a nation that commissions "Privateers" is not itself composed of pirates or privateers. That nation hires "Privateers" either during wartime or peace time to advance its interests.

You can hire a soldier to be heroic, but you, yourself, because you hired him, do not suddenly become a soldier, and neither are you heroic because of his actions.

Therefore, neither ancient Greece nor 17th Century England are pirate nations

Cheers!

[DarkCloud]

Hmm... you seem to have me beaten

touché

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Hmm... you seem to have me beaten

touché

There's no winners or losers

I've learned a lot in this process too.

Cheers!

[Mr. President]

Originally posted by Leonidas


Since Brazil has had a strong western European tradition, and is thus part of western culture, then welcome to our "worthless, violent, and misogynistic!" home

I love my worthless, violent, misogynistic Western European heritage. But I'm doing an archeology unit next semester as an elective, and I'm expecting a post-modern deconstruction onslaught. I'm ready to fight, though!