Troy

[yaroslav]

I always saw this battle as one of the highest epic battles of history. I fully admire Greece (both ancient and modern), so any scen about Greece is welcomed

But I also thinks that Persia should get more credit because she is usually underrated. They were also a civilized culture, that formed the first multicultural empire of all

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by yaroslav
I always saw this battle as one of the highest epic battles of history. I fully admire Greece (both ancient and modern), so any scen about Greece is welcomed

But I also thinks that Persia should get more credit because she is usually underrated. They were also a civilized culture, that formed the first multicultural empire of all

That's very true: The Persians were a highly civilized people.

However, there was one major difference: The Persian Empire was ruled by Royal Degree: a Tyranny if you will.

While ancient Greece valued individualism and freedom above all else. . .

It would be interesting to see how history might have been different had the Persians won and defeated Greece.

When Leonidas was preparing to make his stand, a Persian envoy arrived. The envoy explained to Leonidas the futility of trying to resist the advance of the huge Persian army.

"Our archers are so numerous," said the envoy, "that the flight of their arrows darkens the sun."

"So much the better," replied Leonidas, "for we shall fight them in the shade."

Perturbed, the envoy declared: "The Great King demands that you leave this place and surrender your swords."

With a defiant smile, Leonidas replied, "Come and take them."

[Gagliaudo]

@Leonidas:
Agrre with your ideas... btw, for my very futuristic Greece scenario, I was thinking to put air (move0,def1) mountain 'unit' as the hidden pass showed by the damned Ephialthes to Persians; at a certain moment, it will appear the Ephialtes (air) unit, that will open (destroy) the way to Persians... Just an idea, neither original (inspired by J Ellis & S Hartel scenarios ).

Nice pic, I saw that film 4-5 times , I liked it very much, it was done very well (and quite historically serious).
Steven Pressfield is the author of "Gates of fire" (and another about Peloponnesian war, traduced in Italian "Aegeos' winds" (I'll search for eventually different original title )
BTW, italian archeologist, professor and succesfully writer Valerio Massimo MANFREDI wrote wonderful books about ancient Greece: "Talos' shield" (adventures during Persian wars, very historical ), "Le paludi di Hesperia" (the Diomedes 'nostos'= return). If you see them, catch'em !!!
You' love them!!! (hey, manfredi won't pay me for this )

@Yaroslav:
yes, today is cheap, but always 5-7 €... Cinema is beginning more and more luxe...

[Stefan Härtel]

However, there was one major difference: The Persian Empire was ruled by Royal Degree: a Tyranny if you will.

That depends on how you look at it. The people enjoyed an incredible amount of freedom and equality, almost equal to that of modern-day western societies. Equality of sex, religion, race... it was all there. Nobody was discriminated for where he came from, what he believed etc. Sciences and arts flourished. In fact, the only thing that differed the empire from a democracy was the fact that the people did not elect their leaders (unless they lived in a territory where this was part of the tradition, in which case it was allowed).
That's why I believe Greece would have developed similarily to how it did in reality, with the exception that all national thinking might have been abolished. No Pelopponesian wars, no Macedonian hegemony. It could have been peaceful.

Yes, I guess everybody here knows I've got my own little thoughts about Persia

[Palaiologos]

The movie was 100% BS.

Can't believe people actually liked it. Music, Brad pit, and the dude that played Ector were terrible.

Moreover it had this so american feeling-Agamemnon died in the end simply because he was the villain. And obviously they thought that orlando bloom's legolash role could be taken advantage of, hence the archery crap in the end. And why the hell does Pares and Helen run off to live their love? Pares was slain and helen taken back in reality.

[Palaiologos]

In contrast the 300 spartans movie rocks.

As for the Persians, Xenophon says they were degenerated and feminine and i take his point...*ducks*

And as if the disastrous Olympics weren't enough(i happen to work in them) crap movies about Greek history are sprouting all over the place.

Pah!

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
The movie was 100% BS.

Can't believe people actually liked it. Music, Brad pit, and the dude that played Ector were terrible.

Moreover it had this so american feeling-Agamemnon died in the end simply because he was the villain. And obviously they thought that orlando bloom's legolash role could be taken advantage of, hence the archery crap in the end. And why the hell does Pares and Helen run off to live their love? Pares was slain and helen taken back in reality.

Well, movies can be subjective.

However, the movie Troy is not about the "Illiad". It's based on what is known about the Trojan War, and Homer's book is used for some of the details.

Homer wrote the "Illiad" 500 years after the Trojan War. He also includes the Gods getting involved in the war. Obviously, Homer's book is HIS interpretation of the Trojan War, and he throws in a good deal of fantasy as well. So, who is to say his facts are correct?

The epic poems attributed to Homer (who was blind) were part of an oral tradition, in which stories were recited and listened to, as opposed to written down and read. Like other bards, Homer used mythical tales handed down over generations and told them anew, re-shaping them for a contemporary audience, adding new details and leaving others out.

We know very little about Homer, and there have even been arguments about whether a single poet even created the poems.

So, Homer's book is a mixture of quasi-history and fantasy and should be read mainly as good literature.

Since so few movies have been made about ancient history, I am all for supporting more of this type of movie. Especially, when one considers some of the trash that is in the theatres.

Frankly, I think Troy is good story telling and a good action movie.

I agree about the 300 Spartans, although I would like to see a re-make of the movie.

Cheers!

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Gagliaudo
@Leonidas:
Agrre with your ideas... btw, for my very futuristic Greece scenario, I was thinking to put air (move0,def1) mountain 'unit' as the hidden pass showed by the damned Ephialthes to Persians; at a certain moment, it will appear the Ephialtes (air) unit, that will open (destroy) the way to Persians... Just an idea, neither original (inspired by J Ellis & S Hartel scenarios ).

Nice pic, I saw that film 4-5 times , I liked it very much, it was done very well (and quite historically serious).
Steven Pressfield is the author of "Gates of fire" (and another about Peloponnesian war, traduced in Italian "Aegeos' winds" (I'll search for eventually different original title )
BTW, italian archeologist, professor and succesfully writer Valerio Massimo MANFREDI wrote wonderful books about ancient Greece: "Talos' shield" (adventures during Persian wars, very historical ), "Le paludi di Hesperia" (the Diomedes 'nostos'= return). If you see them, catch'em !!!
You' love them!!! (hey, manfredi won't pay me for this )

It sounds like you have some interesting ideas

I just found the book "Gates of Fire" and will start reading it soon.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel

However, there was one major difference: The Persian Empire was ruled by Royal Degree: a Tyranny if you will.

That depends on how you look at it. The people enjoyed an incredible amount of freedom and equality, almost equal to that of modern-day western societies. Equality of sex, religion, race... it was all there. Nobody was discriminated for where he came from, what he believed etc. Sciences and arts flourished. In fact, the only thing that differed the empire from a democracy was the fact that the people did not elect their leaders (unless they lived in a territory where this was part of the tradition, in which case it was allowed).
That's why I believe Greece would have developed similarily to how it did in reality, with the exception that all national thinking might have been abolished. No Pelopponesian wars, no Macedonian hegemony. It could have been peaceful.

Yes, I guess everybody here knows I've got my own little thoughts about Persia

I agree about Persia. Most rulers, especially Cyrus were quite benevolent.

However, what is important is the way ancient Greeks thought about Persia and Persian rule. They were very independent, almost to a fault. When they weren't fighting Persians, they were whupping each other's butts. The Peloponesean War, in particular, is a very sad event. . .

Interesting on what might have happened in Greece.

It almost seems as if certain empires/countries expand, flower, give the world great works, then slowly fade into history. . .

Toynbee and others have examined this issue.

The philosophy of history can be an interesting topic. . .

Cheers!

[Leonidas]

This modern memorial in Greece to the men who died defending the pass at Thermopylae was erected in 1955 (and was funded by America!); the bronze statue of Leonidas was modeled after a fifth century marble statue presently housed in the Sparta museum. The marble base of the memorial is composed of reliefs showing scenes from the battle and bronze plaques bearing famous epigrams inspired by this conflict.

Statue of Leonidas at Thermopylae

[Gagliaudo]

@Leonidas:
Hey, man...
what abou this? Never heard about Simonide of Keos ???

[Leonidas]

Simonides of Ceos
(c.556-468BC)

Poet from Ceos who lived both in Athens and Thessaly. In Athens he became famous for celebrating the heroes and battles against the Persians. He is said to have written some of the epigrams that were put on plaques at Thermopyle in memorandum of the great battle between the Greecs and the Persians. One of them said "Here fought once against three million barbarians, four thousand Peloponnesian men." His last years were spent on Sicily, at the court of the tyrant Hero in Syracusae.

However, those plaques were put in place (ironically) because of funding from America

[Gagliaudo]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Leonidas
Simonides of Ceos
(c.556-468BC)

That's absolutely right, of course
I was joking, I know your profile's final message ("Go passerby..." and so on...)

[fairline]

Originally posted by Leonidas

However, there was one major difference: The Persian Empire was ruled by Royal Degree: a Tyranny if you will.

While ancient Greece valued individualism and freedom above all else. . .

That kinda depended on a number of things, and varied from city state to city state: Athens was an entirely mysogenistic society, so women had absolutely no rights or freedoms. 'Democracy' applied only to one section of society, and didn't mean much if you were a slave. Lakonia, by contrast, afforded more rights to women but was a dual monarchy with little or no 'democracy'. It wasn't much cop if you happened to be a Messenian Helot either . Many other Greek city states were oligarchies rather than Athenian-style democracies as well.

BTW, Troy would make a good scenario Leonides

[Leonidas]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Gagliaudo

Originally posted by Leonidas
Simonides of Ceos
(c.556-468BC)

That's absolutely right, of course
I was joking, I know your profile's final message ("Go passerby..." and so on...)

Heheh

No problemo. . .

I just thought it was kinda weird that it was America that erected that monument in Greece.

Goes to show you that bravery is a universal concept that can be understood by everyone. .