Strategies against Barbarian Attacks

[SlowThinker]

Zenon,
I can declare I am a well experienced combat tester and so I can give you an advice:
In rules.txt set hit points to 10 (100 points): then the fortuity will be very low. Also operate with higher attack and defense values (5 and more): then the defender's advantage will be low.
This way you can determine the exact bonus easily.

[Zenon]

Thank you all for this interesting information. I have run some tests now about the early defense bonus. Some conclusions are quite interesting:

The capital keeps a defense bonus against barbarian attacks when the second city is founded. This defense bonus seems not to expire. It still works in modern times. A fortified warrior has appr. a 70% chance of survival against a barbarian archer (diety level, a short check on king level gave a 100% chance of survival). This works with other units, too. A fortified chariot gives the same results. Chances to get veteran status are appr. 70%, when surviving such an attack. Other cities seem to have no defense bonus. A fortified warrior in another city never survived in the tests. With the additional defense bonus of a river the chance of survival was still below 10%. Phalanxes do surprisingly well. They survived in 75% of all cases with a 50% chance to become veterans. With a defense value of 3 (2 + 50% fort.) versus an attack value of a barbarian archer (3 + diety bonus) this is unexpected. A fortified phalanx in the capital easily survived 2 archers. The chances to win with an attacking warrior or a phalanx against a barbarian archer were appr. 30% each. Chances to become veteran were low, obviously in accordance with the normal 20% chance.

Zenon

[solo]

Elephant,

So much of the value of trade routes comes from the SSC's own bountiful supply of trade arrows, it doesn't much matter how poorly off the AI (or barb) city is doing in trade. It's the 100% bonus for a RR connection that provides the boost to total route values.

Along the same lines, is the idea of NOT conducting SSC trade with the best AI trade cities later in the game. SSC arrows are enough to ensure maximum payments for demanded commodities, and the lack of arrows in the target city keeps commodity supply and demand unblocked because new routes are not established to replace existing ones.

One more note: If you still have that save, it also happens to illustrate how the "SCG switch" can be used advantageously. Go into the SSC and remove enough city workers until there are 0 shields. Presto! A new supply of uranium!

[rah]

Yes, if there's any grassland nearby and some ocean (perfect if it has a food special), it will grow quite quickly.

[Elephant]

WOW- I slipped a Dip in next turn: Viborg had 2 trade arrows, and 34 corruption! It was using the Harbor you left for several ocean tiles, the rest was shielded grass and the pheasant. The reciprocal route for the Barbs was +12.

Hmmm... plant an extra city for deliberate Barb sacrifice... another crazy EL strategy! Maybe we should retitle this thread "Strategies to INVITE Barb Attacks"...

[solo]

Yes, I found the save, but the connection in this case was made via a station. Even with low barb trade, look inside my SSC and see how much higher the Viborg routes are, at 30 arrows each vs. 22 for another AI city with better trade.

[solo]

Yes, Rah's idea, or a variation of it, is well worth implementing in El games.

I had a RR connection for a while in my large map game when one of my helpers was captured by the barbs. The RR connections were already in place, and the bonuses were still much higher than for other AI cities. I will look for a save illustrating this if i still have one.

[Elephant]

I notice a continuous attack on the Russians in EL#3 after I had gotten their map from Marco Polo contact; wonder if that was a land tile spawning ground problem. Rah's suggestion is worth trying, but leads to either a circle city formation (bad for early corruption) or a partially filled continent, inviting other civs to settle later. Then again, that might not be so bad...

Still don't understand how you would make the RR link to a Barb city, nor have I ever seen a Barb city grow above size 5 after capture. They seem to emphasize shields, so their trade would be lousy. If you have a game where you used the TR to a Barb city I'd love to look at a SAV.

[solo]

Elephant,

Good points.

In EL #3, I was actually hoping the barbs would take the northern helper on the west side of the island to allow the profitable RR connection. The fact that they did not appear "out of the dark" as I hoped and believed, lends less credence to this theory. Being on the bottom of the map limited the number of nearby "spawning" tiles, making the barb threat at home much lower during this game.

If a city can spare an extra shield, I will often make a phalanx to use in conjunction with my diplomat. I found this to be necessary for a helper on the fringe in EL #4 that was being attacked by barbs on a continuous basis during part of my game.

[Elephant]

When we played GOTM25 over at CFC the whole map was revealed from the start, which had the effect of letting you see the Barbs when they first spawn, then track them across the oceans (I liked zooming out (the "Rah zoom"?) to watch the full-screen action). You are right, that does not tell us if there is any greater likelyhood of spawning in black tiles near cities, but just watching them I rarely saw them spawn near a civ; they usually spawned far at sea, then moved pretty deliberately toward the coast of one civ or the other. I suspect they get a "target" or a direction to head when they spawn, then it is modified only after reaching their original target.

Viewing accessible tiles near your cities is a vital first defense; you get "early warning" of barb approaches, and you may or may not prevent spawning closer to yourself. I was suprised to see how you did not explore the western end of the island in EL#3; I am still nervous with the EL strategy of defenseless cities and minimal exploration.

I tend to use most of my gold for partial rush buying, so dip defense could just as well be camel defense (although dips move 2...); the problem with rushbuying a defender is that it takes another turn to fortify him. My strategy has been to make a single Phalanx early on, keep him fortified in the SSC or capital, and connect roads to nearby cities to move him there if he can get fortified before the Barb arrives. If not, evacuate the city, let them take it, and buy it back next turn. If the Barb is seen far enough away, get the Phalanx to a Hill or Mtn in its path, kill the Archer and go after the Leader.

I have not used Barb trolling in EL games thus far, but sending a Dip or Horse on a ship with a caravan was a favorite strategy in "normal" games. Many hut-popping strats are laid aside...

[Ming]

Yeah... nothing better when you have diplo handy, and the lead barb seperates himself from the King. You get to bribe the unit, and get the money back while making a profit

[solo]

Perhaps the reason I have observed barbs more often coming from unexplored tiles is because they can not spawn within a certain distance from cities as observed by rah. A lot of unexplored tiles around a city would increase the odds of having nearby "spawning" tiles.

I agree that certain tiles seem to be used for spawning barbs, but one question I do have is how can one observe whether these are unexplored or not when playing with the whole map revealed?

Diplomats do not cost any shields for support, which is why I use them for defense when playing under Republic or Democracy. If I see barbs approaching a city and have enough time, I will often build a temporary defender, too, let them attack, and then go after the leader. Often, a barb attacker can be bribed and used this way, too.

[War4ever]

Originally posted by rah
With the exception of barb ships, barbs will only appear outside of a certain distance to a city. (not sure what it is but it's farther than three. If you leave a decent size area in the middle of your empire unsettled, it will be a barb spawning ground that you can turn into a money factory by killing kings.

My question is barb targeting. Every now an then a barb will show up early in the game near a newly found city that you think is automatically toast, but then the barb (that was only two squares away,) moves off. Your nearest opponent is over 15 squares away, so I wonder just what the heck the new target is. Then after 5 or 10 turns, and after you've build the proper defense, it comes back and immolates itself against the city that it would have crushed a few turns before.

that my friend is called luck

too many times i have seen barbs go in a diagonal direction through my empire and not touch a single city even though they are only ever 2-3 squares away from thse cities.

it is odd when they show up then head off somewhere else...i always assume its another unit from a rival that they have their greedy eyes on?

[rah]

With the exception of barb ships, barbs will only appear outside of a certain distance to a city. (not sure what it is but it's farther than three. If you leave a decent size area in the middle of your empire unsettled, it will be a barb spawning ground that you can turn into a money factory by killing kings.

My question is barb targeting. Every now an then a barb will show up early in the game near a newly found city that you think is automatically toast, but then the barb (that was only two squares away,) moves off. Your nearest opponent is over 15 squares away, so I wonder just what the heck the new target is. Then after 5 or 10 turns, and after you've build the proper defense, it comes back and immolates itself against the city that it would have crushed a few turns before.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Elephant
Solo, I dont think the Barbs are spawning more near cities that are next to black tiles; I think that is a mis-perception, because we are more likely to notice them as they approach from elsewhere in the black, and we are more suprised by them suddenly "jumping out" so close to our cities. I encourage you to play a few games with full map revealed from the start to see how they seem to spawn in certain areas. I do not know how we could build the Road/Rail link to a Barb city: wont the defenders kill our Settler/Engineer on sight? Barb cities may also prefer Shields over Food and Trade; sometime I mean to slip a few Spys into a test Barb city and see what they are doing.

I'm with Solo on this one. It may not change the probability of appearance but having no black squares around your cities sure helps as it gives you time to react to the threat.......which is of critical importance in empires that are lightly defended.