Lizzy's rise to greatness

[Dinner]

1. I specifically said I was willing to take over and likely several others would as well but you said you were better than everyone else and wanted to stay in control. That's fine, I'm happy with that solution, but do stop the pedantic nonsense about saying no one offered or that you're going to run away and hide if you don't get your way on everything. It's tiresome.

2. I in fact have done diplomacy when ever asked to do so.

3. Yes, you made grand plans for the big picture and equally, yes, we have occasionally questioned if in light of new developments if changes should be made. This is good, rational, and healthy so please do get over yourself and your little drama just because other players wanted some changes made. It's childish.

Now, WRT this:

I told this many time: I will only swith technology path, city production etc if I get a thoughtfull analysis why is that path is better than the current one.

Wrong. Just completely wrong. The turn player carries out what the majority of the team members want even if they do not agree with the decision. If your chosen path ends up not winning the team vote then I suggest you become more persuasive in your arguments but the team vote is the final arbiter of what the team does not the turn player. Period. End of discussion.

Personally, I agree, yes, sound reasoning and good arguments are the best basis to decide policy but every time you lose a vote you throw a hissy fit like a teenage girl or worse you simply ignore what the vote was and continue doing what ever the hell you want. That is tiresome and unacceptable. I would like you to stay and I believe the team is stronger with you on it but, no, you will not always get your way and you are not the arbiter or gatekeeper wrt team policy.

As for going to war, as I have said in the past, I will conditionally vote for war but I want to see construction immediately moved to building military units. Not next turn, not in five turns, not some distant future date when we get gunpowder. We need a damn army and we need it now. Further more, ALL future research needs to be shifted to military techs until we secure the needed techs. That is to include iron working for swordsmen, the techs for catapults, and a strong defensive unit of some sort (that will depend upon what units they bring against us but long bows or crossbows would make good options as would macemen). All the available units need to be moved to defend the front where ever possible.

[mzprox]

just an additional note: we'd only start the war if we can't get to agreement and the stiuation for a quick attack is still favorable. it is possible that I spot new troops next turn or they move into a more defendable position, then we will not attack.. for now. we will have time to discuss what to do next.

Right now the only way to start the war (by moving first) is to let the timer out and the maya should not be around.

I believe Maya iknows these thigns as well, so I predict they will be around when the turn flips and they will move their units into the forest tile. We can't attack them there.

So even if we go along with option 'A' it is much more likely that the war will not start in the next turn.

i'm not even sure it's worth stalling the time.. because 99% chance that they will be there when the turn flips and we are not allowed to attack them then. And as I have said they can move into the forest tile.

[mzprox]

Dinner, one more post like that and I'm ingoring you for the rest of the game and you can go moan wherever you want. I've never insulted you and I will not take it from you anymore.

[Dinner]

If you're unable to carry out the duties of the office then maybe you should leave. The turn player follows what the majority vote is, always, and if you're unable to follow something so simple then maybe you shouldn't be the turn player. I have repeatedly said I would like you to stay but if you're unable to follow that simple democratic rule then you must go.

Can you follow it or not?

Also go ahead and quote any insult I used in the previous post. It wasn't there and once again you are creating drama. Stop that, seriously.

[Hercules]

Guys pause for breath. This would not be good for our civ at this time. Stop trading threats.

But yes, democracy rules.

[mzprox]

Calling my actions moronic, stupid, retarded, childish, comparing me to a teenage girl is an insult. You can't talk in civil manner. I've never called your advices stupid, instead i've tried make a normal argument and if I thought it was necessary explain how the civilization game mechanics work. It is your arrogance which creates drama.

[mzprox]

letter from the Maya:

Dear ottomans,

We had hard internal discussions in our high council, but we finally decide to accept your proposal and go back with our settler. We appriciated that your were frank with us and tell your limit and we believe that we have better to do together in this game than to fight and let an other team take the lead.

We will settle to have a coastal city near the corn (and exploit it), at the same level than izmir. It is out of your forbiddeen area of your message.

If we agree on that border, can we then discuss on a NAP?

Best regards,

Mayans


This seems to be a nice victory and they have sent this in the very last moment. if the turn ended sooner i would probably had executed the attack though i had serious doubts. Right now it seems diplomacy and military threats worked great, BUT this also could be a trick so we wil have to be caotious.

if it's a honest letter we have no reason to refuse the NAP and concetrate on our peaceful development.

Right now our scout in incan land shows no sight of hostility from there and they have expressed their good will towards us. (they fear that their war with the natives could continue) so we won't have dangerous enemies at our borders though we will keep the mayan border reinforced and watch them closely.

[Ben Kenobi]

I vote B - Limited war is suicide.

[Hercules]

Yes Good outcome. Now lets figure a strategy re other teams.

[Dinner]

Calling my actions moronic, stupid, retarded, childish, comparing me to a teenage girl is an insult. You can't talk in civil manner. I've never called your advices stupid, instead i've tried make a normal argument and if I thought it was necessary explain how the civilization game mechanics work. It is your arrogance which creates drama.

Sorry, but no matter how you try to spin it starting a war without first building an army and not lining up any allies is stupid. Once again, that is talking about an action not a person. We might still be able to limit the damage but it will require an all out effort on the military front and that will mean lots of units to fend off their attacks. In an attempt to get along with you I will try to be extra careful about your obvious sensitivities but, yes, you have repeatedly told multiple people that everyone does what you want or you'll quit and take your marbles home. That is not the actions of reasonable adult so hopefully you will understand that and adjust your behavior. If you don't act in such a fashion then people won't say you're acting in such a way. FACT.

[Dinner]

Yes Good outcome. Now lets figure a strategy re other teams.

We'll tell them after they've moved their settler out of area then we will sign a NAP but not before. I suspect they will try to sneak in a settler the second a NAP is signed.

[mzprox]

One can argue without calling the other's action by names, and no matter how you try to "spin" it it is an insult. And "reasonable adults" reasons..not trying to get high ground by using words like "stupid moronic retarded etc". I've never said "I'll quit unless everyone does what I want". If I would leave it would be because the mood here makes the game not fun. The reason I'm stil here is that I don't want to abandon Apolyton. I don't think and of you would put as much work into the game as I do daily. i'd be more happy to let Cal take over than you would. i've asked him before and asked him recently too. also I'm trying to rally here more people from the Apolyton veterans, we will see how it works out.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mz, we aren't your enemy. I agree, I think Calanthian should take over for awhile. This game was never intended to have just one turnplayer - the understanding is that you and Calanthian would take turns.

There are two reasons for this.

One - two heads being better than one.

Two - that it gives you time to take it off and take a break from it.

It has nothing to do with your abilities, and everything to do with the goal that we all have here - to win. Nobody fights alone, and certainly you do not either. Soldiers rotate out. Why? Because it makes them more effective.

[Calanthian]

I'm willing to take over, but before you let me you need to understand that the reason I drifted away before was the 'mood' .. If it is no fun, then I don't need to play the game.

I hope we can achieve happy cooperation along with a clear strategy.

And more 'diplomatic' wording of proposals and counterproposals.
Words like moronic etc. don't need to be used at all, even if they are not geared towards another player, but at the strategy etc.

My overall goal would be to have a chance to win (thus longterm before shortterm) . Thus we need to take risks from the situation we are in now.

[Ben Kenobi]

Calanthian, the only reason I put up the proposal I did when I did is I believed going into a war unprepared was disastrous. Did that make for hurt feelings? Yes, I'm sure it did. Nobody likes to be criticized especially if they believe they are doing their best and are making the most of a difficult situation.

I understand that - I've been there. I made a major screwup on strategy once that lead to a disastrous loss. Did I like being blamed for it? No. But, were they right to blame me? Absolutely.

I would rather hurt feelings now if it means avoiding something that will lead to disaster.

I don't want to hurt feelings here- but what other options are there when you feel that someone is going off a cliff?