Time to Pick a Leader & Civ

[OzzyKP]

Ok, let's go back to the list of civ options mz laid out earlier (minus the ones chosen already). I'll rank my choices.

let's see our options for civ. Some general points:

pro for a civ:
-starting without hunting (so with a warrior)
-starting tech: mining (leads to bronze working, gives job to worker)
-startting tech: agriculture (very usefull and relatively expensive)
-unique unit which is usefull for early game or for a long period (free promotion which is kept after upgrade)
-unique building which gives economic advantage and realtively early.

Going through on this list:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/civilizations

I collect those civs which we should consider, I only put civs here which has at least somewhat useful UB.

Here is my list of civ preferences, in order:

Aztecs

Jaguar
Sacrificial Altar
Mysticism
Hunting

Very bad starting techs but a very powerful unique building. It's a cheaper courthouse and if I look at my last game it could mean about 10 extra happyness/ city. UU is not that good, but promoted units keep woodsman I.

I really like the Mali. I like their techs, their UB and their UU. If it was just me playing I'd pick them over everyone. But... I dunno. I've never been a big fan of slavery. In my mind it seems like slavery throws away long term productivity & growth in favor of a short term gain. I know it doesn't work out that way if you know what you are doing, but I've always been very uneasy and skeptical about whipping population. But I also hate chopping forests for much the same reason. So I'm not really know how to factor that into my ratings. I saw how mz used the lash so effectively in DoF and it makes me wonder if he'd be able to do magical things with the Sacrificial Altar. It certainly was useful in the test game we played where I used the whip more then I ever had in a game. It was a big difference maker for me and man, I still hated using it. For someone who really knows what they are doing? With a team behind him calculating out all the hammer overflow nonsense I don't have time for? Could be a huge difference maker. Maybe. But again, I really don't know much about slavery. I hate the Aztec starting techs and their UU, but I put this civ at the top (or near the top) solely on the strength of my trust in mz & cal and their ability to use the Sacrificial Altar. Mz must be doing something right in game after game. If we can tap into that, and if this UB allows us to tap into it more effectively? Well I'd be prepared to take a leap on that.

Mali

Skirmisher
Mint
Mining
The Wheel

10% money on forges, good UU and starting techs.

Compare the Mali to England. The Mali UB gets +10% gold vs. +15% gold on the English UB, except that (for me at least) forges get built in every city, banks only in a few. Forges are available much sooner as well and are cheaper, so that bonus compounds. I guess it depends on how we run our economy, but would a 10% gold boost be more valuable then a -20% maintenence bonus (like from the Zulu)? If we are going for a specialist economy I imagine we'd be more likely to keep the science slider low, so that gold bonus would be more useful then otherwise.

The Redcoats, as mz noted, have a limited window of use, while the skirmishers are ideal for warding off barbarians and early rushes alike. Since we had intended to play more of a builder game these would keep us safe through much of the early game. Enough time, I hope, to really crank up our economic advantage. Plus the starting techs are strong as well. I'm a fan.

Sumeria

Vulture
Ziggurat
Agriculture
The Wheel

Ziggurat is a cheaper courthouse which comes earlier. Good if we want to build a spy economy. combined with a phi/org leader especially... Otherwise I'd choose the rathaus.

Great starting techs. I do like the cheaper/earlier courthouses. My biggest problem (perhaps I'm alone in this) is that with so many other useful needs I put off building courthouses as long as possible. They are too expensive for a limited gain (imho). But cheaper ones? That starts looking like a better deal for me. I love the UU too. Most war around this time gets fought with axes, on both offense and defense, so basically we get a more powerful version of the most useful unit of the age. Much better vs. archers & mounted units then the unit it replaces.

Ottomans

Janissary
Hammam
Agriculture
The Wheel

Expensive starting techs, +2 happy face aqueducts are quite good, UU has no big role.

I like the versatility of the Ottomans. The starting techs are great for early growth. Extra happiness always comes in handy, especially if we want to use the whip and grow our cities. The UU isn't the strongest, but it is certainly well rounded. Like the skirmisher it helps us survive one age and get to the next (though admittedly arriving at the end of one age).

Zulu

Impi
Ikhanda
Agriculture
Hunting

Ikhanda is a barrack with -20% maintenance

HRE gives us -75% maintenence. The Zulu with a barracks & courthouse gives us -70%. Not bad. Plus barracks get built earlier and more often. Hunting is lame, but agriculture is good. The Impi could be a good unit to send off exploring and make contact with lots of civs, but overall I'd say the UU is rather weak. Much weaker then the Skirmisher or Vulture imho.

Korea

Hwacha
Seowon
Mysticism
Mining

+10% science on universities, not bad

Not bad, but not great either. The one thing I like is the synergy between the UB and our traits, but with not great starting techs and a not great UU, I'm not terribly excited about Korea.

Rome

Praetorian
Forum
Fishing
Mining

Praetorians..

Eh, better then some other options, but I'm not terribly excited about Rome. The UB certainly fits with our specialist strategy, but I don't see it being all that powerful compared to others. The UU is certainly powerful, but only if we wanted to use it. Do we expect to be invading our neighbor in the classical era? My guess is no.

Carthage

Numidian Cavalry
Cothon
Fishing
Mining

Very strong if we start and spread along the coast, but risky take if we don't know more about the map. UB:+1 trade route

I agree with mz's assessment. But do we want to take that chance? I don't know...

England

Redcoat
Stock Exchange
Fishing
Mining

Stock exchange is 15% extra money, redcoats are nice but riflemens are usually short lived units, fishing is map dependent.

Eh, see my comments on Mali.

Egypt

War Chariot
Obelisk
Agriculture
The Wheel

Expensive starting techs and good UU. UB is not that usefull

Eh.

Dutch

East Indiaman
Dike
Fishing
Agriculture

Dike(leeve):+1 prod on water tiles very strond, but requires coastal cities. And in that case I'd consider CArthage as a better pick

I absolutely love the leeve, but not only is it map dependent, it is very late in the game. Who knows if we'll even live long enough to use the UB. The UU, of course, is pretty lousy. I don't like this civ at all.

Portugal

Carrack
Feitoria
Fishing
Mining

UB: +1 commerce on water I'd put Carthage and the Dutch above this pick

Me too.

[Calanthian]

I hate the Aztec starting techs and their UU, but I put this civ at the top (or near the top) solely on the strength of my trust in mz & cal and their ability to use the Sacrificial Altar.

I am not such a big whipper

[OzzyKP]

Fine, then I put my trust in mz's ability to whip, not yours.

[mzprox]

at this point 1m leaning towards Korea, that extra 10% science will always be great, I consider it better than 15% gold. i'd really want to try the sacrificial altars, but I feel the aztec would handicap us in the begining (bad tecs, no warrior)

edit:

right now I'm looking at 4 civs:
first Korea and Mali. Korea has better UB, Mali's comes a bit earlier. Mali has more useull starting techs and has a good early unique unit. With many teams choosing aggressive leaders we might need something to not look easy target. Skirmishers are very strong city defenders (tough we must go for Hunting/archery which I usually skip)

The Aztec with their altars, downside is the bad starting techs and that so far I could manage happyness without it. so dunno..

Ottomans with 2 extra happyness, nice starting tech, a well rounded choice.

[Calanthian]

Another factor with Korea is the build bonus of universities, along with the +10% means we'll have them (and Oxford !) a LOT sooner and more productive. Especially as the main factor one achieves Oxford is the time it takes to build the last one in your smallest city..

Mail and England are good too..

I like the English starting tech of fishery. If we get a little luck (with some clams, fish or crabs), it really helps the "delayed REX" scenario immensily. As then the first build will be a boat: fast city growth, and then even faster city growth if the boat is finished. And we'll be one of the top techs too..

PS. HRE is gone, sadly ;(

[Calanthian]

Team RB picks Egypt

[DNK]

Well, we need to pick a 1-2(-3) quickly now. I offer my top 3 (Aztecs only if we plan a slavery econ)

My choices:

(AZTECS)
UU = meh
UB = amazing
Techs = poor

If we plan on a slavery economy, I think the weak starting techs and UU are more than made up for by the UB. My #1 choice for that, but it seems Cal doesn't want to do that, so I'm not sure now. Still, not only is the UB really useful for it if we do, but it's also a lot cheaper. For a building we need to mass-build in order to get over a REX hump, getting it in many turns earlier from that will help a lot also.

#1 KOREA
UU = meh
UB = great
Techs = decent

I'd prefer a food tech to start with, but we can always get one while building a worker. Mysticism opens up an early Oracle shot, and mining is my favorite starting tech. The UB is solid, and something we're going to be building quickly regardless of strategy. +10 tech is a very good bonus, I think, though it starts a bit late in the game imo. Not really sold on the UU given that stacks usually have strong archery/mounted units that take the siege hits.

#2 SUMERIA
UU = good
UB = good
Techs = great

Solid for an early start, and we get the good UB for our later REX phase. Can't complain at all. Very well balanced for our needs, and it doesn't force any particular approach.

#3 ROME
UU = awesome
UB = decent
Techs = decent

Fishing is probably not so useful on this map, so it's a bit of a wasted early tech. The UU is perfect for seeing us through any early-mid attacks. The UB is so-so with a PHI trait already in hand, but still it enhances our approach.

[DNK]

right now I'm looking at 4 civs:
first Korea and Mali. Korea has better UB, Mali's comes a bit earlier. Mali has more useull starting techs and has a good early unique unit. With many teams choosing aggressive leaders we might need something to not look easy target. Skirmishers are very strong city defenders (tough we must go for Hunting/archery which I usually skip)

Skirmishes are definitely solid for likely early game issues (barbs and rushes). How quickly are we going to get forges, though? I don't usually prioritize MC on non-Colossus/pangaea games, and I figure being the builders we are that Education is going to be heavily prioritized if possible. How much sooner are we picking up MC here, and how much sooner for us to mass build forges in all our commerce cities? This is really asking you to consider your playstyles - I know my answer is that forges aren't as important as unis, and don't always get built that much sooner for me, but I think you tend to build infrastructure a lot sooner than me in general.

Another factor with Korea is the build bonus of universities, along with the +10% means we'll have them (and Oxford !) a LOT sooner and more productive. Especially as the main factor one achieves Oxford is the time it takes to build the last one in your smallest city..

Mail and England are good too..

I like the English starting tech of fishery. If we get a little luck (with some clams, fish or crabs), it really helps the "delayed REX" scenario immensily. As then the first build will be a boat: fast city growth, and then even faster city growth if the boat is finished. And we'll be one of the top techs too..

Uniques that don't enter the game until after Gunpowder can't really be counted on. Fishing is a real risky tech, because we could just as easily find ourselves landlocked or in a non-coastal start with limited use for Fishing/Sailing. With Agriculture, Wheel, or Mining you know you need to use those all fairly early on.

[Calanthian]

Uniques that don't enter the game until after Gunpowder can't really be counted on. Fishing is a real risky tech, because we could just as easily find ourselves landlocked or in a non-coastal start with limited use for Fishing/Sailing. With Agriculture, Wheel, or Mining you know you need to use those all fairly early on.

True, but a did a test run to check how risky..






Test runs on huge pangaea map, regenerating it 30 times. Based on this we still might even consider Carthage (fish+cothon), very counter intuitive, but still..

Out of these 30 runs:

* in 5 cases we'll be trade-king of the world (FIN + 1 extra trade route)
* in 7 cases we have solid advantage

So in 40% we gain quite a lot. And in another 33% the cothon still helps a large part of our cities.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm sold.

1. Rome

Can't go wrong here. Balanced. Decent early unit (Praetorians), to help us stave off invasions. Also, what's not to like about Lizzy of Rome?

2. Carthage

70 percent chance of a significant advantage that will turn us into a trade superpower? Sold.

3. Sumeria.

As was posted here - Sumeria is a sandbox for us. Lets us be flexible and takes advantage of Lizzies best traits. Doesn't give away our strategy.

[Calanthian]

One additional comment: Normally no one will bother much about having the Great Lighthouse on a pangaea map..
Now check the above numbers again, and imagine being Lizzy of Carthage with the Great Lighthouse...

[mzprox]

There is no really consensus between us. heck, I can't even get to consensus with myself

During the game the Aztecs would give us the best benefits with big unhappyness reduction. BREAKING NEWS: the Aztecs are taken!

Korea is a good science boost

Mali better techs and UU than korea, but 10% money is less usefull in early game

Ottomans: excellent starting techs, very good ub, but our cities will be small, so no healthy cap untill factories.


I don't like rome, wouldn't risk Carthage or any sea specific civ.

I can say that the Ottomans probably the safest choice as their starting techs giving us advantage, and that +2 happyness eventually will be used.

[Calanthian]

True, we are still indecisive..

But if we go for the compromise: I see Mali and Korea on everyones list..


Runners up are: Sumeria and Ottomans.
Outsiders: Rome, Engeland, Carthage

[DNK]

They're building a map, so using vanilla scripts isn't really indicative, plus it was said we have "more space than usual", which to me translates into "we have less coastal cities than usual". A coastal UB or water UU needs to be significantly discounted then, and there's no way it can then stack up equally to an already solid high-tier UU or UB like we're discussing with other civs.

I also have no issues with Mali or Korea. If Rome and the Aztecs are out of consideration, then Mali and Korea are in my top 3. Mali has the more useful UU and Korea the better UB. Perhaps the fact that Mali has better starting techs ought to push them ahead, but again I have my concerns with using their UB to the fullest extent. I'll let the turnplayers decide how important forges are compared to unis in our commerce cities...

[Robert]

I'm in big favour of Rome.
Like I said before, there are huge odds that we will a huge war in the early game.
If we want to follow the philo approach, we need to be able to buildup as easrly as possible, with preatorians we can focus more on building up our philo approach. Not to mention that other civs may not even consider attacking us b/c of the preatorian.

The preatorian will help us in the early game to become a very good great people civ.
And then it even offers us a UB that even expands the great people production.

Mining is great. We can go for BW immediately, and then Iron Working is around the corner (after researching agriculture and the wheel for obvious reasons).
Fishing sucks as a starting tech, but not so much.... it'll help us to establish river-trades early in the game, especially if we can found a 2nd city next to the same river our capital is on.

So:
UU: Best
UB: Good for our strategy
Mining: Best
Fishing: potentially decent