Lizzy's rise to greatness

[Aeson]

Let me know if/when to open the forum. I was impressed to find out this game was still going. Apolyton has done well in it. MZ did a great job.

I hope people had fun with it most of the time, but a satisfying ending to a demogame is a very unlikely outcome. Too many things that can disrupt the game can happen over the years.

I wouldn't make a good turn player. It's been about 5 years since I last fired up Civ IV, and I never really played the expansions ... wouldn't have the time to put any planning into it anyway.

[MJW]

RB was never at war with Spanish Apolyton. They spent 2-3 pages reacting to you negatively. I'll just point out that the reason why the reaction was so negative was because Spainish Apolyton never even interacted with them because they were two civs away (WPC and Inca). All RB noticed was that they plummeted to the bottom and never recovered. Also, Spainish Apolyton liked them and even tried to give them gold at the end (RB declined). So you said that RB brutally killed someone who was two civs away and was friendly with them...

I'm was just suggesting sources to get new players into Apolyton after MZ stepped-down from being our turn-player. RB and whatever site they find a replacement player (for CivPlayers) would be a good place to start. RB players playing again is explicitly allowed by the rules. The person who replaced Maya for awhile was from RB and had no afflation with CivFr and a person who could replaced CivPlayers would probably have no afflation with it. The Maya replacement was also recruited by posting in their forums. I should point out that I really hate subs (the hatred is for reasons other than yours) so of course I would not want us to track down a sub for CivPlayers. I'm just suggesting ways of making Apolyton a better team in case this game somehow goes on.

However, I agree with your logic about this being supposed to be a contest between sites. The problem with converting to AI is that it's really bad so it would be unbalancing (as the mod said). I think there needs to be rules in place before the start of the game of how to handle when a team refuses to submit orders. Bringing in a sub, the defacto "solution", doesn't cut it for reasons you outlined. I would suggest that a sub is brought in but can only defend and cannot win the game. This keeps someone from getting a bunch of land for free (which would have happened in this game) but still keeps the game a contest between websites. Now my solution obviously has problems (like where to find such a sub) but there's no reason to think of better solutions yet because this is probably the last ISDG ever.

[OzzyKP]

1. Who cares?
2. Was I wrong that RB was at war with Spanish Apolyton?
3. If I was... who cares?

[MJW]

They're talking about your post #440 in the CFC-turn thread. They interpreted your post as implying that they killed Spanish Apolyton when they had nothing to do with it.

Edit: And for bonus points MZ immediately corrected you.

[OzzyKP]

What?

And I support the draw, but if needed I can play the turns. I don't support finding a sub for CP that is not from that site. The whole point if this game is to put sites vs sites. If RB players start subbing for civs after they lost it defeats the spirit of the game. No mercenary players/subs. Personally I'd rather CP go AI if the game is to continue.

But, again, I think a draw is best.

[MJW]

You=Turn Player for Templers
Ozzy said the wrong team killed Spainish Apolyton which I agree with them is really bad
Me=I don't have to justify myself

[Hercules]

This doesn't matter at all but here's some random notes:

Hmm... possible sites to get replacements RB (this is where maya's replacement came) and wherever civplayers replacement comes from. MZ should probably make the posts if it comes to that due to the fact the rest of the players on the team are not respected by RB.

What exactly does that mean?

[MJW]

I would also not play because there's no way this game finishes. Without Caledorn willing to order the winners there's no reason to play for place ether. Also everyone expect HRE would have been replaced (CFC effectively got replaced multiple times when Mackoti came and left) so this game is a total farce.

This doesn't matter at all but here's some random notes:

Hmm... possible sites to get replacements RB (this is where maya's replacement came) and wherever civplayers replacement comes from. MZ should probably make the posts if it comes to that due to the fact the rest of the players on the team are not respected by RB.

Caledorn didn't forfeit CivPlayers so he cannot make us play unless we want to.

Edit Aeson might be a good option too.

[MJW]

Okay then: I suggest you open (by asking Ozzy or Aeson) the forums so:

1. So the game doesn't go on putting us at a huge disadvantage without you
2. It's unlikely to restart anyway.

If a sub is found Apolyton has to choose if the game goes on. I would vote "no" because subs are BS and CFC and HRE went over the deadline anyway. And we would lose our main turnplayer because of that.

Edit: HRE's eagerness makes me highly suspicious too.

[mzprox]

I hope you understand that I don't wish to continue this game. It's no longer fun..it couldn't be fun when some of your rivals don't take the game seriously while you do.
If any of you still wish to play on let me know, I will give all the help I can.

[MJW]

Oh HRE wants to continue as well. That is very suspicious and really makes me think that there is a secret treaty.

Because MZ wants the game to go on the most logical thing to do is to wait a week to open these forums (you will have to tell Aeson to open the forums after a week). This is because there's no way the game could go on after a week because of people leaving. So any attempt at resurrecting this game would just be a total waste of time. I should point out the MZ has already "won" by making CivPlayers quit; if a sub somehow turns it around it's not really CivPlayers.

To repeat, if the game were to go on CivPlayers would move 5-minute maya style. CFC & Apolyton would get basically all the CivPlayers and CivFr cities for free. There's no way for UCiv/HRE to keep up with that without systematically playing both sides. However, that would not work because CFC & Apolyton would just get piss off at them enough for doubledealing and kill them even if it puts one of them at a disadvantage. So if you consider the position CFC & Apolyton are the only Civs who can plausibly win anyway. In you don't consider position then it's a different issue if CivPlayers gets forfeited or not.

GG everyone in spite of everything.

[MJW]

Well the game is officially over now... MZ I suggest you make sure that these forums open before you leave so the game cannot restart while your away...

CFC might want to continue because they have a secret alliance with HRE and think they would probably win.

[MJW]

gg, Hercules may disagree with your reaction but it's your civ at this point... If it really doesn't matter who wins at this point then you really had nothing to say.

In my opinion who wins is undefined because rules were not agreed before the start of the game what happens if the game doesn't end but I would have still made an argument.

[mzprox]

At this point doesn't really matter who wins.. I know this is dissapointing. The players have lost interest (to a various degree), we could find the reasons why, but wouldn't make difference. Without interest the game is no longer fun, but still takes too much time.

While we won't have winners we still had good times and we can give a good summary and even make assumptions about what would had happened..
It would had depended on many things, probably most importantly on the players behind each civ. Would had cp found a new good sub? would had HRE/maya stay passive or eventually wake up and affect the game again somehow?
Assuming we just went on with no big changes in the team's attitude I think this is what would had happened:
-Apolyton and CFC continued to fight with aztec (and maya). This would had been a very long war, but the outcome wouldn't be a question. We (Apolyton) already had the biggest power, and while I wanted to slow down with military production together with cfc would still had double than what aztec have. Eventually we would had combined our forces and break through.
-Our primary goal is to weaken the aztec, how far we would had push depends on our agreements with cfc about HRE. Discussions were already made in the past that at least they will not intervene if we go against them, but possibly we could had agreed to destroy them together. After aztec, the biggest threat on us would had been a cfc&uciv(hre) alliance,and I wanted to make steps to avoid that to happen long before we actually kill the Aztecs. Originally I did not wanted to make this much effort against the aztec, I only wanted to help cfc to turn the tide, but after we lost Aurora I made a big push against them keeping our production at very high levels.

At the end we had the biggest land, most cities which were quite advanced, but quite low in pop. that's mostly because we used lots of slaving which gave high yield thanks to our Kremlin wonder. Technologically we were abit ahead/on par with the others with several thousands spypoints spent on each of our rivals to steal whatever we would need. The Eiffel tower and Rock&Roll wonder were about to be finished, these to help us fight unhappyness while our cities grow back.

If we agreed to decide on score in 20-25 turns then probably apolyton would had won the game. As many wonders (world and national) were in the making, spy points already allocated to steal every tech we would need, small cities which could had grown very fast if we stopped slaving etc..
If we played on.. who knows..Lot depends on how much we brake cp, whether HRE allies with cfc or maybe with us? Most likely though cfc and us would had rolled over HRE too to stop them going for spacerace with their undamaged economy. Then it's either a space race between us and cfc (we have better research, they have better production) or a big long.. very looong war. Since spaceship parts can be sabotaged by spies the game would had been very long for sure.

[Hercules]

I think we should respond with these points.

A bit surprising at lack of CFC response.