Lizzy's rise to greatness

[MJW]

Okay then, I'll prod you again on Monday night.

If you read that thread I last linked it tells you that CFC feed gold to us and civplayers. This is a NAP-stab but CFC got away with it. In fact with the diplo situation being so well defined at that point and the fact that this is the last game CFC could have done that directly and attacked at turn 170. The gold-gifts also makes mackoti even more important. It's be a good idea to make websites update the list of players after the game starts in the future to stop some of this from happening again. You can stop the sucker-punch of what mackoti did but not people playing for the wrong site without opening a can of worms. And yes, mackoti, there is such a thing as wrong sites if the point of the game is a contest between them.

That post also showed that you made mackoti quit after you made CFC honor their agreement to attack Maya. That's some great work MZ to have so much pull that you can get passed the main-turn player. I'm pretty sure that CFC looked-up to mackoti which made it even more impressive. If I were active at that time I would assume that it would not be possible. Good work!

[Aeson]

I don't see a clear statement in the CFC thread as to the game being closed. In any case there's no need to rush. Waiting a few extra days to be sure isn't going to be an issue. Opening the forum and having the game restarted would be a huge issue.

[MJW]

Okay, the latest you should open the forums is Monday if you are hesitant for some reason, Aeson...

If you check out the RB thread Mackoti didn't join RB for a slightly different reason. It was their disrespectful and arrogant attitude. That's because it caused their downfall more directly by making mackoti join CFC. It's not all bad for them. If this was a real contest between websites mackoti would have to suck it up and play for RB or just sit. Him taking over CFC made RB lose to RB and intentionally hiding his presence by not being on the list lets them off the hook for losing.

mz I'm interested in your reaction to CFC's and RB's forums.

[MJW]

The mod really did end it on his last post though.

If you check out http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=7238 he saw that I said that the game was over. He would have reacted if that wasn't the case. I do admit that his post is a bit ambiguous after rereading. But him not reacting to that RB thread removes that.

[OzzyKP]

Hold off for now, there is still some disagreement in the thread.

[Aeson]

Power is back out here. not sure when it will be back on, I think they plan on taking it down each day and restoring it at night until they get all the repairs done (typhoon). I'll open the forum in 24 hours (or the earliest time thereafter where I have electricity) if there's no objections.

[Aeson]

So the rule was all the forums would be opened up after the game? Are there any threads that shouldn't be opened up?

[MJW]

Well here is the biggest RB fail if you don't want to trudge through so many posts. This was taken from Twitch before that website changed their policy and is from the main turnplayer:

https://soundcloud.com/user364531826/diplo-f-k-diplo/s-tWLbs

Some caveats...

1. It's edited by removing all the filler so it's less worse than it sounds here.
2. WPC actually deserved to be harshly attacked here. It's the way they are being attacked here that's the fail.
3. WPC just suicided their entire army so they would not be able to do anything for a very long time. So this didn't change the ending of the game for RB at all. If RB entered "Code Red" mode, which they would have done if they knew that Mackoti was CFC, they would have probably got WPC on their side by pushing buttons and helped them not suicide their army.

[MJW]

Nevermind, Caledorn has "officially" called this game. So you can open the forum right now. I suggest you go to post #1979 and reread it because the game is over. You can find their forum in the post but I have to point out that the twitch videos are down because twitched changed their policy after RB died. So don't accuse them of covering up when they didn't.

I'll just have to emphasis that I feel that this game stopped meaning anything the moment Mackoti took over CFC. For those who don't know him Mackoti is one of the best, if not the best, player at RB. I don't think he joined the team because he knew that Sullla would take over (Sullla has the overwhelming advantages of being the turnplayer for the first game and having extra time for not playing in PBEMs or PitBoss.) and he would not be able to do anything expect offer snide remarks. So when he took over CFC; CFC wasn't playing it was an RB member who didn't want to join the right team. I'm also pretty sure that Mackoti intentionally hid his presence from RB until it was too late to gain an advantage. This is not against the rules but extremely cheap because it stops your opponent from reacting properly. I'm pretty sure that he joined right after the teams where posted so he wouldn't appear on the list. If he was on that list RB would have played completely differently from turn 0. Also, there's a very good chance that CFC wouldn't make peace with CivFr for various reasons if Mackoti didn't take over. If that didn't happen there's a good chance of RB not giving up and working extra hard. They probably would have found out your plan and done something about it. There's a good chance they would have killed the main stack and with SoZ and Great Wall combo they would have forced you to sign peace. With so many extra cities they would cruise to victory like in the first game.

So if this game stopped meaning anything after Mackoti took over CFC this game doesn't mean very much. It means that WPC and the Spanish didn't know what they were doing. It means the Germans/Inca were very unlucky and RB had the best micro.

GG for real this time.

[MJW]

Aeson could win on original Diety before the game was released 50% of the time and deity was consider totally impossible (without exploits like infinite anarchy exploit) by pretty much everyone until it was toned down. Five-year hiatus is not enough to overcome that.

[OzzyKP]

I wouldn't make a good turn player. It's been about 5 years since I last fired up Civ IV, and I never really played the expansions ... wouldn't have the time to put any planning into it anyway.

I'm very sure you would better than Ozzy and you wouldn't have to do any diplomacy.

Haha, wow.

[MJW]

I have to point out that you don't have to be that good Aeson in order to beat CivPlayers and CivFr which is our real goal. I'm very sure you would better than Ozzy and you wouldn't have to do any diplomacy. It's not my place to tell you when to open the forums but I suggest Monday because that was a week after the "ruling".

If there's ever another DemoGame there needs to be an explicit rule about what happens when a team refuses to submit orders before the start of the game. Even if it's to bring in a random sub, the most popular option for some reason, people need to know what they are signing up for.

I have to nitpick and point out two things to ozzy:
1. The mod explicitly said that CivPlayers not moving and AI takeover are not options at all.
2. Maya is back to their original turnplayer as seen in their last post so they can just continue playing.

Edit: I've reread and RB only attacked you for one page at most. That might seem like a lot but they have around 50 reasonably active members until the end. So no-one made more than one post about it.

[Hercules]

What?

And I support the draw, but if needed I can play the turns. I don't support finding a sub for CP that is not from that site. The whole point if this game is to put sites vs sites. If RB players start subbing for civs after they lost it defeats the spirit of the game. No mercenary players/subs. Personally I'd rather CP go AI if the game is to continue.

But, again, I think a draw is best.

I agree with this and your post in the ISDG thread at cfc.

[Hercules]

Anyway I am pleased the reputation of Apolyton has been restored, thanks to Mzprox's long hours devoted to playing the turns and his strategic insights and planning.

Also I am pleased about the negative fortunes of some of the teams.

[OzzyKP]

RB was never at war with Spanish Apolyton. They spent 2-3 pages reacting to you negatively. I'll just point out that the reason why the reaction was so negative was because Spainish Apolyton never even interacted with them because they were two civs away (WPC and Inca). All RB noticed was that they plummeted to the bottom and never recovered. Also, Spainish Apolyton liked them and even tried to give them gold at the end (RB declined). So you said that RB brutally killed someone who was two civs away and was friendly with them...

Hahah, they need to get over themselves. Obviously Mz is the turn player and I don't know or remember what happens in the game as well as he does. So I made a mistake. 2-3 pages hating on me for a simple mistake like that, especially when it was just a one line post, is absurd. They just sound like poor sports to me.