Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Persia (DoB)]

Can confirm game is good. In-game atm.

[Sommerswerd]

OK so I finished my dinner... Wife made delicious pie from peaches picked off tree in backyard of place where I moved to. I had to eat this with scoop of vanilla ice cream piled on top. Mmmmmmm

So the game is working and Spain is not playing Greece...

On another matter, if I ask for DMW, are Greece to return my Christian Holy city and pay me for the razed island city?

No. Portugal made peace with Greece. The War is over with Greece, so Greece is not included in a DMW by Portugal. Only Civs you are at War with are included in the DMW.

Portugal can still ask for DMW, but the DMW only affects the Civs Portugal is at War with. ATM I think this is Spain and Persia. So if Portugal calls DMW, then Spain and Persia would have to return cities (or pay a penalty for razed ones).

Also, Portugal already called for MMW, (which requires Civs to offer peace terms before attacking cities), so if Portugal calls for DMW, you would be abandoning your MMW, and anyone would be free to attack your cities for 10 turns.

On third matter, I am just now trying to study the rules in their part where war is limited and without being even at 50% in to it, I think some rules will need some serious reworking.

I am always willing to talk about rules (for this game... as well as just in general as everyone knows ). However, the subject of reworking the rules just came up last month IIRC (I brought it up) and everyone rejected that, preferring to leave the rules as they are.

[Spain (DoB)]

Portugal can still ask for DMW, but the DMW only affects the Civs Portugal is at War with. ATM I think this is Spain and Persia. So if Portugal calls DMW, then Spain and Persia would have to return cities (or pay a penalty for razed ones).

Can you please clarify the following claim I have, Sommerswerd?

If I interpret the rules correctly, Portugal can not call for a DMW against me, because Portugal captured one of my cities and turned it over to the Roman AI after capturing it. The rules state:

6.7.3. If the Defender has captured any cities in the War, he can not invoke Defender's Measured War, until the cities are either returned to the parties the cities were captured from, or refused by those Civs.

Since I had to recapture said city myself from the Roman AI, Portugal did not return the city to me, and as such is not eligible to invoke DMW against me.

Is this a correct interpretation?

Second, since Portugal refused my MMW peace offer, and also refused my offer of a forced peace for 10 turns when the 5 turns after that had passed (as according to the rules), does that mean that I am free to continue the war against him for as long as I like and that he has forfeited the option of a forced peace?

[Persia (DoB)]

The claim of Spain also applies to me. Portugal has captured and subsequently razed one of my settlements after I set terms for peace (5 turns) and refused offer of forced peace (10 turns).

[Sommerswerd]

Here is the relevant rule.

6.7.3. If the Defender has captured any cities in the War, he can not invoke Defender's Measured War, until the cities are either returned to the parties the cities were captured from, or refused by those Civs.

If I interpret the rules correctly, Portugal can not call for a DMW against me, because Portugal captured one of my cities and turned it over to the Roman AI after capturing it.

That is not correct. If a Defender captures a city from the Attacker, then turns that city over to a human and then calls for DMW, the human recipient would be obligated to turn over the city back to the Attacker. If the human player refused to obey the rules and hand the city back to the Attacker, then I would have to boot them and do it administratively (this has happened once already). So if the AI has the city instead of a human, then we would log in to the AI and hand the city over, then kick the Civ back to AI. Then the DMW would go into effect as normal.

Since I had to recapture said city myself from the Roman AI, Portugal did not return the city to me, and as such is not eligible to invoke DMW against me.

Is this a correct interpretation?

No. In this situation the city has already been returned to you. You have possession of it. It makes no difference how it was returned. Spain is still covered by a DMW called by Portugal.

Second, since Portugal refused my MMW peace offer, and also refused my offer of a forced peace for 10 turns when the 5 turns after that had passed (as according to the rules), does that mean that I am free to continue the war against him for as long as I like and that he has forfeited the option of a forced peace?

No. You are free to continue War against Portugal until he calls for Measured War again. When Portugal refused your MMW forced peace, he abandoned his MMW. That means everyone is free to attack his cities again without any obligation to give terms. However, Portugal is still able to invoke any applicable form of Measured War. That is why the rules say you are limited to one form of Measured War at a time.

For example he is still a Defender, and can still invoke DMW. If he is still a Major nation (10 cities) he is free to invoke another MMW, which would start the process over... cities safe... terms... cities at risk... acceptance/refusal ... 5 turns... Peace offer. MMW is designed to give larger Civs the constant option to keep forcing Attackers to the negotiating table. Don't forget that SMW is always available to Attackers and Defenders who lose 5 cities in a War.

[Sommerswerd]

The claim of Spain also applies to me. Portugal has captured and subsequently razed one of my settlements after I set terms for peace (5 turns) and refused offer of forced peace (10 turns).

This is a different situation. The city can never be returned to you because it was razed. So in this case, Portugal can no longer invoke DMW in the current War, because all the cities that Portugal captured can not be returned (since some were razed).

DMW is intended to be a sort-of "Mercy-rule." If you are hopelessly outnumbered or out-gunned, you invoke DMW to avoid being steamrolled. DMW is not designed to be used a tactical weapon to conquer people and then call DMW to prevent them from counter-attacking. If you are strong enough to fight your opponent (capturing and razing cities and such) then you probably don't need to invoke DMW. That's why the rule is designed that way.

Portugal can still invoke the other forms of Measured War if he is otherwise eligible.

[Portugal (DoB)]

I know Spain have Greece's password and is logging in and out as him or vice versa, gifting cities back and forth, there is where I got the impression both nations are played by a single player and since Greece never post, I thought it is Spain playing both nations permanently.

Sigh, because of me not knowing the rules well I was outtricked by Spain to return those 6 cities I captured/razed back in the time, and now I had lost the Christian Holy city (which was 100% of my income) to Greece because I wanted a short cease-fire to deal with Spain first Well done, guys.

[Greece (DoB)]

Greece is played by a different player.

This is what the following rule states:

4.1. City and Unit trading & gifting is encouraged, and fully allowed at all times. Players are encouraged to give cities and units colorful names integrating them into their storylines and even indicating their origins. Players are cautioned that many innovative tactics involve crafty city and/or unit exchanges. Think outside the box and expect the unexpected as some tactics may never be used by the AI and thus take you by surprise.

I have Spain's password, I did ask for it. This was done to reassure that my city exchange slaving strategy happens on time. Different players time zone could have caused a delay.

[Sommerswerd]

Now is the time to vote for the July Diploscore winner.

You can send your vote to me by PM or use this program to vote http://www.warner-home.com/DoB/ , but please dont use both as it is a little confusing to sort out.

Each Civ has 5 points TOTAL to allocate anyway you choose, except you can not vote for yourself (Please don't vote for Barbarian or eliminated Civs). Remember that is 5 points total, not 5 for each Civ. So you can give 1 point to five different Civs or 5 points to one Civ or anything in between. If you don't vote there is no penalty, but you can't use the votes later.

Remember don't be a scummy double voter and please don't vote for yourself if you are subbing for anyone (for example, if China is casting votes for China and Japan, then Japan should not be voting for China, and China should not be voting for Japan).

As usual, we will leave the voting open all month, and announce the results at the end of the Month at the same time that we open the voting for next month. That way everyone gets plenty of time to read, catch up, notice that voting is going on etc. I will send everybody a PM.

Happy Voting

Most Importantly, Here is the current Leaderboard:

Netherlands = 85
Japan = 84
England = 56
China = 47
Persia = 45
Holy Roma = 38
Spain = 26
Ottomans = 21
Portugal = 17
Greece = 10

(France = 60**, Russia = 44**, Arabia = 35*, Celtia = 27*, Byzantium = 23**, Rome = 22*, Vikings = 16*, Germany = 1*)
* = Barbarian (AI Civ) , ** = Eliminated Civ

Here are the Final Results of the June voting:

Persia = 9
Holy Roma = 6
Netherlands = 6
Japan = 5
Spain = 3
China = 2
England = 2
Portugal = 2

As a recap Here are the Final Results of the prior voting: May: Persia = 12 Holy Roma = 8 England = 3 Netherlands = 2 Spain = 2 China = 1 Greece = 1 Ottomans = 1 April: England = 8 Holy Roma = 7 Persia = 7 Byzantium = 4 China = 2 Netherlands = 2 Celtia = 1 Germany = 1 Rome = 1 Russia = 1 Spain = 1 March: Holy Roma = 16, Japan = 9, France = 7, Rome = 5, Portugal = 4, Greece = 3, Netherlands = 3, Byzantium = 1, England = 1, Russia = 1 February: Persia = 14, Netherlands = 8, Arabia = 4, Byzantium = 3, France = 3, England = 2, Japan = 2, Rome = 2, Russia = 2January: Russia = 17, Vikings = 8, China = 7, Japan = 5, Arabia = 4, Ottomans = 4, England = 3, Celts = 2, France = 2, Netherlands = 2, Portugal = 1 December: Arabia = 10, Russia = 6, Netherlands = 6, Ottomans = 5, Japan = 2, France = 2, England = 2, China = 2, Spain = 1, Rome=1,Greece=1,Celtia= 1,Byzantium = 1 November: Spain = 12, Netherlands = 6, Russia = 6, England = 5, France = 4, Japan = 3, Rome = 2, Arabia = 2 October: Russia = 9, England = 9, France = 5, Celtia = 4, Japan = 3, Netherlands = 3, Portugal = 2, Arabia = 1, Byzantium = 1, China = 1, Greece = 1, Ottomans = 1 September: Netherlands=12, China=9, Celts=7, England=6, France=5, Japan=5, Greece=3, Portugal=2, Arabia=1 August: China = 8, Portugal = 4, Japan = 3, Netherlands = 3, England = 1, Ottomans = 1, France = 1, Russia = 1, Greece = 1, Holy Roma = 1, Spain = 1 July: Japan = 14, Netherlands = 12, China = 6, Byzantines = 5, France = 4, England = 3, Ottomans =2, Celts =2, Rome=1, Russia =1 June: Japan = 24, Netherlands = 6, Rome = 2, France = 2, Portugal = 2, Arabia = 1, England = 1, Vikings = 1, China = 1 May 2012: France = 15, Arabia = 9, Rome = 8, Celtia = 6, Netherlands = 6, England = 4, Byzantium = 4, Japan = 5, China = 3, Persia = 3, Vikings = 2 April 2012 - France: 11, Netherlands: 8, Ottomans: 7, England: 6, Spain: 6, China: 5, Vikings: 5, Celtia: 4, Japan: 4, Arabia: 3, Byzantium = 1

Congrats to Netherlands, the score leader . Well done everyone and keep it up!

[Sommerswerd]

I don't know how many of you knew this... I don't remember if I mentioned it before on this thread, but some of you know from other forums, I have a baby on the way... due in a couple days, actually.

So if I suddenly drop out of contact for a few days, that's what happened, don't worry I will be back. Just giving you all the heads up.

[China (DoB)]

Congratulations! I take it that the game being down is due to water break, labour pains, stress or roaming child pulling the plug. My god... didn't you just move? Now you have a baby on the way?! Holy crap... just get a new job and you have all the stress factors for a heart attack!

But based on the previous posts and controversy re SPAIN and GREECE ... perhaps we all need a time out anyway?

[Sommerswerd]

My baby girl arrived and is healthy and happy and thank God, she seems to be a relatively good sleeper . We named her Gillian . 7lbs 4 oz

Anyway, on to the important stuff... The game was down but when I tried to restart, none of the saves from the new turn would load. I wasn't getting a corrupted file message, just put in the password and the Pitboss program would just freeze and go back to password entry. I even tried Portugal's autosave, which was the last one in the turn before it rolled and I got the same thing . Wierd, never seen this happen before.

I was starting to panic, but then the next oldest save, the HREone did load fine, so that means Portugal and HRE have to replay last turn. thankfully only a couple people had played the new turn so they would have to replay when the turn rolls in 3 hours. Sorry about that, I have no idea what happened.

[Persia (DoB)]

Congratulations! Your last name isn't (Mr.)Anderson by any chance? Perhaps that would explain the Deja Vu feeling in the matrix after your daughter was born? :P

[Portugal (DoB)]

Congrats Sommerswerd! May she be real father's princess!

Damn, with so much turns missed on my side I constantly find my units killed and my cities razed (thanks guys, you are all good sport and great warriors at the same time as it seems). I wish I had the consistency to play and keep things going as you do with the organizing side, Sommerswerd. (Or I am Sommerswerd and I am using this as disguise )

[Persia (DoB)]

If you find that RL stuff is keeping you from doing a good job with your civ, why not get a sub that can take the turns? It is in the rules that you can get a sub on your own, or you can ask Sommer to help you find a sub. That way you do not lose cities/troops simply from lack of presence. If the game takes a toll on your spare time, remember it is only a game.