Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Sommerswerd]

An interesting scenario came up at the end of the DMW for the English/French war.

Sequence of events for the last turn when mandatory peace is required by DMW rules.

1. France plays his turn first and submits mandatory 10-turn peace treaty by DMW rules.
2. England plays his turn second but declines the peace treaty so that he can move some troops through French territory. England then submits a cease fire with France.

In this particular case, England sent France an email stating what he had done and the turns were right after one another so I was able to log back in and accept the peace agreement so no major harm done in this case however if I had not read my email or been able to log back into the game then France would have had to endure at least one more turn of war then the rules allow.

My questions are:

1) Please confirm that what England did in this case was against the rules. (No compensation requested in this case however I do want to make certain there is precedent for future transgressions which may have larger consequences.)
2) How will compensation for this type of infraction be determined in the future? Does the victim merely state the damage done and request appropriate compensation?

For example: in this case England's infraction allowed it to:

a) recover an axeman which would have been stranded for several turns on the mainland until a galley could have picked it up
b) move its galley through French territory to reach the west coast which it could not have reached otherwise thus providing positional advantage for a future attack from France's west coast that France may have difficulty defending against.
c) the extra war turn would also have denied France access to 3 key tiles allowing a total of 4 food, 1 commerce and 7 hammers. (This could have been much more significant if the blockade was still in effect as well). The loss in food may have caused starvation while the loss in hammers may have caused a significant delay in the production of something important (say losing a wonder race or not getting a unit built in time for another attack).

Based upon that scenario, could I request as compensation something like the following:

a) axeman must remain on galley for 5 turns (the number of turns it would have taken to recover the axeman otherwise)
b) the offending galley could not be moved from its current location until such time as it could have reached that location without breaking the rules (9 turns in this case)
c) a workboat in 10 turns to compensate for the cumulative lost growth/production from the tile loss until the debt is paid?

As an aside: England chose to submit a ceasefire instead of 10 Turn Peace Treaty (as I have mentioned previously this is very annoying since it means manually tracking peace durations). War cannot be declared between England and France until turn 240.

Requiring peace treaties to be offered and accepted at first possible opportunity would be the most straightforward.

Only issue here is that the party that logs in 1st still has the option to move around its units before the other side can accept peace. Guess the stipulation to address this would be that no units may undertake any action in or move through enemy territory. That would prevent the sort of thing I did, moving a ship and unit out of French territory, but would allow the other party to delay logging in until the last min and thus deny the person who logged in 1st the opportunity to move any of their units once the peacedeal removed the units units from enemy territory. Not necessarily a huge issue but I am sure it could be abused especially in instances where multiple wars are being fought at the same time.

Here is the relevant rule:

6.7. Defenders Measured War (for all defender Nations) - Any turn after a Nation is attacked, they can call for Defender's Measured War- War may continue for 10 turns. After 10 turns, a 10 Turn peace treaty must be accepted, and the attacker must give 3 (if available) of defender’s captured cities back to the defender. The attacker chooses which cities to give. However, if the attacker took the Defender’s Capital in that war, he must return it.

France invoked DMW on turn 229. "War may continue for 10 turns" means Turn 1 is turn 229, turn 2 is turn 230, turn 3 is turn 231, turn 4 is turn 232, and so on ... turn 10 is turn 238. After turn 238, War is no longer permitted under DMW. Therefore, the first person to log in on turn 239 should offer a 10 turn peace treaty (not a cease fire), and refrain from engaging in acts of war (ie stuff you can only do because you are at war (like attacking cities, units, moving around in the opponents territory with units who would be expelled by a peace treaty, etc.). The second person to log in on turn 229 MUST accept the peace treaty. If there was no offer of peace, they should offer it themselves and refrain from doing things that they would not be able to do if there was a peace treaty (see above).

Failure to do the above is rule-breaking. If the victim of the rule-break insists on an admin-enforced penalty, then I would probably select a judge (not myself) from the current players to determine the appropriate penalty. The game will not be paused. Play will continue while this process goes on.

The way the judge would be chosen is I will ask the players involved to rank the nations they want to judge in order from 1 to 18. The judge that is the highest and most closely ranked by both players will be the judge. If they refuse, I will ask the next highest on the list. If everyone refuses, I will be the judge.

If the judge is not me, it will be up to the judge to decide how to resolve the dispute. If the judge is me, both players will get 1 PM to make their argument and I will make my final decision after reading both PMs.

Should I add this to the clarifications? Or is it clear enough for folks to remember?

[Sommerswerd]

Another way to deal with the "I don't know what he did before offering peace" problem, is for the last guy to login on turn 10 of the war to just offer peace before logging out. That way, if the other guy is the first to login the following turn, he will have to accept peace before he can even play.

If the other guy just happens to log in again on turn 10 but after the first guy offered peace, he could just reject it, look around, finish his moves etc., and then re-offer peace before logging out. The only thing this method would require is that after the turn rolls, the last guy to login refrains from logging in again before his opponent has logged in (and presumably) accepted the peace treaty.

All this is just a suggestion of course. I am perfectly fine with players working out among themselves who will offer the peace treaty and when it will be accepted. I am just offering a suggestion of how to handle it in a way that there can be no dispute as to whether the rules were broken. Again, if you guys think this needs to be codified in the rules let me know.

[Netherlands (DoB)]

I really am enjoying the China-Japan story

[Exploit]

Game is down.

[Canuckistan]

Still can't log into the game...

Assuming it's down indefinitely?

[China (DoB)]

Unable to connect.

[Canuckistan]

Game is back on.

[Netherlands (DoB)]

Great post Celtia! I want to know what is next!

[Holy Roma (DoB)]

Faugh! Apparently this mod has the 3.19 buggy overflow gold code still.
No overflow at all, instead of removing multipliers as designed.

Just threw away a bunch of hammers.

[England (DoB)]

HRE - I've noticed that for slaving - any idea how it plays out for wonders?

[Japan (DoB)]

Congratulations to Nether and Ottoman forces - first barbarian village destroyed. Good post Nether.

[Netherlands (DoB)]

I find discussion about the overflow here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=351585


Thankyou Japan! I also love your story

[Japan (DoB)]

Good post England!

Edit: Game appears to be down. Religious unrest on the server?

[England (DoB)]

damn taoists!

[Sommerswerd]

Edit: Game appears to be down. Religious unrest on the server?

I am at work right now, but I will be able to check out the server in about 10 hours.